New Eton E5 gloat
 

In article .com,
"Joe Analssandrini" wrote:

Hello.

My terminology may have been confusing and hard to understand. What I
meant was that the pitch of a sustained musical note will change while
using the Drake synchronous circuit. This happens when the signal is
subject to fading and the circuit attempts to maintain lock. It is most
noticeable on musical shows, naturally. The note sounds as though it's
being lowered a semitone or sometimes even more - in other words, the
music sounds as if it's going a bit flat or "sour."

Last night, I listened to VOR's "Jazz Show" on the Satellit 800 instead
of the AR7030 Plus. Naturally, during the show, the phenomenon never
occured at all. However, when, at 0258, I switched frequencies (from
9665 kHz to 9860 kHz), and VOR was broadcasting their interval signal
(The Great Gate of Kiev), you could hear the "note-flattening" effect
very easily! And, as I said, this sort of thing never occurs with the
AR7030 Plus.

I noticed this "warbling" (probably a bad term but I don't know what
else to call it) almost as soon as I bought the set back in 2000. When
I had occasion to call Drake, I queried their technician about it and
he said that performance was normal. A couple of years later, when I
had occasion to send the set to Drake for adjustment and repair, I
asked the technician if this could be corrected. He said Drake was
well-aware of the phenomenon but that it was inherent in the design of
their circuit. He told me most people do not notice it but those with
"perfect pitch" (something with which I have been blessed) will hear
it.

To make myself as clear as I know how, I would rate the Drake
synchronous detection circuit as 4 5/8 "stars" out of 5 and AOR's as 4
7/8 out of 5. (The fault with AOR's sync circuit is the split-second
muting which occurs whenever the sync is engaged and you re-tune,
either with the knob or with the remote control. There is NO muting at
all when tuning or re-tuning via the RxWINGS program so, at least for
me, the point is generally moot.)

In any case, it is my opinion that during actual listening, the AOR
AR7030 Plus' synchronous detection circuit is "superb" and the Drake
circuit is "merely" excellent.

I can (and do!) live with both.

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Joe Analssandrini wrote:

Hello.

My terminology may have been confusing and hard to understand. What I
meant was that the pitch of a sustained musical note will change while
using the Drake synchronous circuit. This happens when the signal is
subject to fading and the circuit attempts to maintain lock. It is most
noticeable on musical shows, naturally. The note sounds as though it's
being lowered a semitone or sometimes even more - in other words, the
music sounds as if it's going a bit flat or "sour."

That's what I thought you meant. I did hear this on an R8 but not on my
two R8B's.

Last night, I listened to VOR's "Jazz Show" on the Satellit 800 instead
of the AR7030 Plus. Naturally, during the show, the phenomenon never
occured at all. However, when, at 0258, I switched frequencies (from
9665 kHz to 9860 kHz), and VOR was broadcasting their interval signal
(The Great Gate of Kiev), you could hear the "note-flattening" effect
very easily! And, as I said, this sort of thing never occurs with the
AR7030 Plus.

I noticed this "warbling" (probably a bad term but I don't know what
else to call it) almost as soon as I bought the set back in 2000. When
I had occasion to call Drake, I queried their technician about it and
he said that performance was normal. A couple of years later, when I
had occasion to send the set to Drake for adjustment and repair, I
asked the technician if this could be corrected. He said Drake was
well-aware of the phenomenon but that it was inherent in the design of
their circuit. He told me most people do not notice it but those with
"perfect pitch" (something with which I have been blessed) will hear
it.

Are you sure you mean perfect (absolute) pitch? That's when you know the
musical letter assigned to any note you hear without a reference note.
It's quite rare. I have relative pitch. I can hear a very slight change
in the pitch of a tone. I also know when I'm hearing a song in it's
original key. For example, I can whistle a popular song in it's original
key but I couldn't tell you the actual letter of that key. That's why
it's called 'relative'.

To make myself as clear as I know how, I would rate the Drake
synchronous detection circuit as 4 5/8 "stars" out of 5 and AOR's as 4
7/8 out of 5. (The fault with AOR's sync circuit is the split-second
muting which occurs whenever the sync is engaged and you re-tune,
either with the knob or with the remote control. There is NO muting at
all when tuning or re-tuning via the RxWINGS program so, at least for
me, the point is generally moot.)

In any case, it is my opinion that during actual listening, the AOR
AR7030 Plus' synchronous detection circuit is "superb" and the Drake
circuit is "merely" excellent.

I can (and do!) live with both.

I don't think I could live with the ergonomics of the '7030'. I know I
couldn't live with the menu carousel on the original R8. I hate going
through menus to change a setting. I want buttons. The more the merrier.
I can change the most commonly used functions on my R8B in the dark.

I'd like to hear an audio file of the 'warbling' phenomena on your R8B.
Could you post one somewhere for us to hear?

New Eton E5 gloat
 

In article .com,
Joe Analssandrini wrote:

My terminology may have been confusing and hard to understand. What I
meant was that the pitch of a sustained musical note will change while
using the Drake synchronous circuit. This happens when the signal is
subject to fading and the circuit attempts to maintain lock. It is most
noticeable on musical shows, naturally. The note sounds as though it's
being lowered a semitone or sometimes even more - in other words, the
music sounds as if it's going a bit flat or "sour."

Sounds like there's a bit too much FMing of the "BFO" (local carrier
oscillator).

One bit of trivia I remember reading in an old QEX (I think). Some of the
hams who work with real narrowband modes, (the guy who did "Synchronous
CW", Pettit?), was working on a phase shift keyed narrowband mode and
had a very stable receiver that could output the phase of the signal
it was tuned to. He said that some of the shortwave broadcast signals
were not stable in phase. (My guess, the result of some of these high
effiency digital transmitters). In the short term, the carrier phase
danced all around. This would give a PLL with a relativly short time
constant filter that sort of symptom.

Feedback control systems (ie. the Phase Locked Loop) can be a real bitch.

In any case, it is my opinion that during actual listening, the AOR
AR7030 Plus' synchronous detection circuit is "superb" and the Drake
circuit is "merely" excellent.

Do you work as an advertising copy writer? Or work in some sort of
sales/marketing job? ;-)

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Dear "Telamon,"

I hear this "note-flattening" on music fairly frequently when listening
to music via a station whose signal is variable in strength (when
listening on my Satellit 800 with AGC set to "slow," sync circuit
"on,." using 6.0 kHz [nominal] filter or the 4.0 kHz one, and the
station's frequency set to "spot-on"). Obviously, I cannot tell others
when they will hear this effect but it is very noticeable here on the
east coast when the VOR (whose signal varies in strength) is playing
their interval signal. Try listening to that. On the Satellit 800 (and
the two Drake radios I heard - R8B and SW8), a sustained note will
appear to change frequency, "flattening" momentarilyand then returning
to its proper frequency. This happens often.

It never happens with my AOR AR7030 Plus receiver.

Best,

Joe

"Telamon" wrote:

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear
the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Thanks for the audio note distortion description. I'll listen for it
and see if I can hear it. Must be the sync is drifting off center
carrier due to the tone created by the musical note looking like
another carrier to lock too during a selective fade. The difference
between the radios audio response could then be due to the PLL lock
time where the Drake drifts faster then the 7030 causing the change in
tone.


In article .com,
"Joe Analssandrini" wrote:

Dear "Telamon,"

I hear this "note-flattening" on music fairly frequently when listening
to music via a station whose signal is variable in strength (when
listening on my Satellit 800 with AGC set to "slow," sync circuit
"on,." using 6.0 kHz [nominal] filter or the 4.0 kHz one, and the
station's frequency set to "spot-on"). Obviously, I cannot tell others
when they will hear this effect but it is very noticeable here on the
east coast when the VOR (whose signal varies in strength) is playing
their interval signal. Try listening to that. On the Satellit 800 (and
the two Drake radios I heard - R8B and SW8), a sustained note will
appear to change frequency, "flattening" momentarilyand then returning
to its proper frequency. This happens often.

It never happens with my AOR AR7030 Plus receiver.

Best,

Joe

"Telamon" wrote:

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear
the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Dear "HFguy,"

You know, when I made that comment about perfect pitch I wondered, just
for a second, if anyone would bring up the difference between
"absolute" and "relative" perfect pitch but I figured that, in this
context, it didn't really matter. Obviously though you have made the
question. So to answer you: yes, like most who have "perfect pitch,"
mine is "relative."

I don't know if that is a "requirement" for hearing the
"note-flattening" (frequency or pitch-changing) effect that the Drake
synchronous circuit inserts into musical notes being transmitted (as it
attempts to maintain lock) over a variable-strength signal being
received (I believe that most people could hear it), but it is
sometimes an annoyance to me and, according to Drake, it is inherent in
their circuit. Obviously the technology does exist to eliminate that
problem.

But let me make this statement: there is no such thing as a "perfect"
radio or "perfect" circuits. Drake's synchronous circuit is extremely
well-designed and performs in a manner that would please just about
everyone, certainly including me. (I've owned my Grundig Satellit 800
for six years now and am VERY pleased with it.) I just think that, in
overall performance, AOR's synchronous detection circuit is somewhat
better.

Regarding the AOR AR7030 Plus: its so-called ergonomic "shortcomings"
have been blown WAY out of proportion. How often do we actually make
changes in operating parameters? Face it, we tune in a station, adjust
the passband (if necessary), adjust the filter (if necessary), engage
the notch filter (if necessary), and then we sit back and listen. (At
least that's what I do!) You can do all that on the AOR with just one
button push (and twirling one knob) for all of those functions (except
the notch filter which hunts out and "zaps" the offending heterodyne
automatically! - you don't need to use a knob). You can do much of that
from your easy chair across the room, if you like, with the remote
control, or, if you prefer (as I do), you can control practically the
whole shebang via your computer using one of several computer-control
programs (I use RxWings - its free and its fantastic!). Just about the
only people who could not use an AR7030 Plus are those whose VCRs
permanently blink "12:00."

Its a pity that reviews were quick to damn something new and
revolutionary like the AR7030 Plus and its operation. Many people
(including myself - for years!) were heavily influenced by these
reviews and therefore were reluctant to try this radio.

I am VERY glad that I overcame my fears and bought the set. You may
well stick to your views and you are welcome to them (and I respect
them) about "buttons," "controls," etc.(and, to tell the truth, I like
them too - they really look great and they impress the heck out of your
friends and relatives - "you REALLY know how to use that?!?"), but take
my word for it: you CANNOT get performance equal to that of the AOR
AR7030 Plus without spending twice (or more) its price (antennas and
all other things being equal). Check out the tables in PASSPORT 2006
and you'll see what I mean. And also note that this radio, now in its
eleventh year of production, is still one of PASSPORT's top receivers.
Not only that, but ANY AR7030 can be converted (for a price, of course)
to the latest specifications, hardware, and features by the factory.
(In other words, your 1996 set can be brought up to 2006 standards.)
This is excellent engineering. (For example, you cannot convert a JRC
NRD-535D to a JRC NRD545, or a Drake R8A to an R8B.)

And if an old "luddite" like myself can learn to operate this radio (it
took me all of thirty minutes), anyone can! Believe me, it really is
EASY to use and is the best shortwave radio I persoanlly have ever
heard or owned in almost fifty years of shortwave listening.

Best,

Joe

P.S. I don't know how to record a SW signal to computer. Try listening
to the interval signal of the Voice of Russia (if its signal-strength
is variable at your location as it is at mine). You will hear some of
the sustained notes go momentarily flat (change pitch) when listening
to it on a Drake radio or Grundig Satelit 800 (and possibly the new
Eton E1 if that radio also uses the same Drake sync circuit - it may
not) and then the note will "recover." Turn off the Drake sync circuit
and this effect does not happen. The notes stay on pitch..

P.P.S. As all of us Sony ICF7600GR owners know, Sony's sync circuit
injects a horrible"whistle" when it's trying to maintain lock on a weak
or rapidly-fading in and out signal. But, then, the ICFSW7600GR costs
only (at MOST) $150.00 and NO other currently-manufactured small
portable SW radio offers any sync circuit at all. Don't like that
effect? Turn the sync off! At least, with this radio, you can have the
circuit on when you want it (which is most of the time). And, as with
ALL radios that feature a well-designed sync circuit, audio quality is
improved (distortion is lowered) when the circuit is on.

"HFguy" wrote:

.... Are you sure you mean perfect (absolute) pitch? That's when you
know the
musical letter assigned to any note you hear without a reference note.
It's quite rare. I have relative pitch. I can hear a very slight change
in the pitch of a tone. I also know when I'm hearing a song in it's
original key. For example, I can whistle a popular song in it's
original
key but I couldn't tell you the actual letter of that key. That's why
it's called 'relative'.

.... I don't think I could live with the ergonomics of the '7030'. I
know I
couldn't live with the menu carousel on the original R8. I hate going
through menus to change a setting. I want buttons. The more the
merrier.
I can change the most commonly used functions on my R8B in the dark.

New Eton E5 gloat
 

"Jim Hackett" wrote:

.... If the AOR's synch is SUPERB, and the Drake's is excellent, where
does that
leave the Bell and Howell, whose designers felt the circuitry was
superb as
it was and opted not to inundate their users with meaningless knob
twiddling? I think you know the answer to that as well as I do....

Yes, Jim, I do. (I pity those who are not familiar with this radio.)
You understand that I was writing about "ordinary" "mediocre" shortwave
sets (such as the AOR AR7030 Plus, the Drake R8B, the Grundig Satellit
800, and one could also include the Ten-tec RX-340, the Watkins-Johnson
WJ-8711A, and/or any Racal, Collins, or Hammarlund model you care to
mention). These radios are obviously NOT in the same class as the Bell
+ Howell Radio ("Tune into the world from home. And tune into home from
faraway ... with this portable nine-band world receiver from Bell +
Howell. ... Expand your listening options with ... AM/megawatt and
shortwave channels.") (Jim, do ANY of your large collection of radios,
with the exception of your Bell + Howell, pick up AM/megawatt
channels?)

Those radios mentioned above, all of which are more expensive than the
Bell + Howell, need "special circuitry" - variable IF filters, sync
detectors, adjustable AGC controls, etc., etc., etc. to achieve what
the Bell + Howell does with its MINIMALIST circuitry (and it's so
EFFICIENT that it needs only two AA batteries - not included - to
operate!).

And the Bell + Howell even picks up TV sound!

Who needs sync circuits anyway?

Best,

Joe

New Eton E5 gloat
 

In article
,
Telamon wrote:

Thanks for the audio note distortion description. I'll listen for it
and see if I can hear it. Must be the sync is drifting off center
carrier due to the tone created by the musical note looking like
another carrier to lock too during a selective fade. The difference
between the radios audio response could then be due to the PLL lock
time where the Drake drifts faster then the 7030 causing the change in
tone.


In article .com,
"Joe Analssandrini" wrote:

Dear "Telamon,"

I hear this "note-flattening" on music fairly frequently when listening
to music via a station whose signal is variable in strength (when
listening on my Satellit 800 with AGC set to "slow," sync circuit
"on,." using 6.0 kHz [nominal] filter or the 4.0 kHz one, and the
station's frequency set to "spot-on"). Obviously, I cannot tell others
when they will hear this effect but it is very noticeable here on the
east coast when the VOR (whose signal varies in strength) is playing
their interval signal. Try listening to that. On the Satellit 800 (and
the two Drake radios I heard - R8B and SW8), a sustained note will
appear to change frequency, "flattening" momentarilyand then returning
to its proper frequency. This happens often.

It never happens with my AOR AR7030 Plus receiver.

Best,

Joe

"Telamon" wrote:

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear
the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?
If I might add my two cents' worth - I think this "note-flattening" is
what I hear when I tune in a musical note, or any continuous tone, on
USB or LSB, then de-tune. The further away I get from the proper
frequency, the flatter or sharper the note gets. This can make music
sound really silly. But I don't have a sync circuit on my NRD-525, so I
can't comment on that function.

BTW, guitar players define PERFECT PITCH as when you throw an accordion
out a second story window and hit a banjo player in the head!

Greg

New Eton E5 gloat
 

.......those reviews.It's like those used car salesmen with their
glowing reviews.The only way to review a radio is to try it out for
yourself.
cuhulin

New Eton E5 gloat
 

I own one of those Bell & Howell AM/FM/Shortwave radios.For only $9.95
plus S&H when I bought it about two years and seven months ago from
www.carolwrightgifts.com I certainly wasen't expecting any great
shakes from that little cheap radio,and I wasen't disappointed in it
either.
cuhulin