Tom wrote:
wrote:
So I could make a short wave radio out of a laptop
using this software?

You can make an Extremely Low Frequency radio out of a computer,
tunable across the bandwidth of its sound system. You could tune up to
about 1/2 the sampling frequency of the sound systems analog-to-digital
converter. Typical sample rates are 48kHz but high end systems go up to
192 kHz so the tuning range would be up to 24 kHz and 96 kHz
respectively, provided the computer can execute the SDR DSP software
fast enough. If you connected an antenna to the microphone input, you
might hear something. To tune higher frequencies, you can use a
conventional superhet receiver as a tunable downconverter, connecting
its last IF (if higher than the computer's audio input range) to a
fixed downconverter, e.g., from 455 kHz to 12 kHz.


Err, Ummm, well, yeah, in THEORY you could. In practice you'll need to
decouple your computer from the antenna pretty well. This means you'll
need a very high Q antenna with a very low noise amplifier to isolate
it, and a very well isolated DC supply to power the amplifier. If those
things exist, you can build your very own VLF receiver from a sound
card. In fact, if your sound card can manage a sample rate of at least
120 kSamples/second then you could use it to tune in WWVB at 60 kHz or
perhaps the German equivalent at 77 kHz if you can manage to sample at
twice that rate.

Other than WWVB, I don't think much is still down there. The earth's
ionosphere resonates at about 7 Hz if memory serves, so that might be a
lower limit to what you might want to try monitoring. The Omega system
was decommissioned years ago, though I've heard rumors that some parts
of it might still be in service in some corners of the world. Finally,
if there are any old FDM coaxial systems nearby, you might detect some
leakage from their traffic (I doubt there are any who still use this
method to trunk VF traffic together, but if there are a few, you might
still hear it)

And yes, a very few radios have a third IF at 50 kHz which you could use
such a sound card with. That experiment has potential.

73,

Jake Brodsky
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

Jake Brodsky wrote:
Tom wrote:
wrote:
So I could make a short wave radio out of a laptop
using this software?

You can make an Extremely Low Frequency radio out of a computer,
tunable across the bandwidth of its sound system. You could tune up to
about 1/2 the sampling frequency of the sound systems analog-to-digital
converter. Typical sample rates are 48kHz but high end systems go up to
192 kHz so the tuning range would be up to 24 kHz and 96 kHz
respectively, provided the computer can execute the SDR DSP software
fast enough. If you connected an antenna to the microphone input, you
might hear something. To tune higher frequencies, you can use a
conventional superhet receiver as a tunable downconverter, connecting
its last IF (if higher than the computer's audio input range) to a
fixed downconverter, e.g., from 455 kHz to 12 kHz.


Err, Ummm, well, yeah, in THEORY you could. In practice you'll need to
decouple your computer from the antenna pretty well. This means you'll
need a very high Q antenna with a very low noise amplifier to isolate
it, and a very well isolated DC supply to power the amplifier. If those
things exist, you can build your very own VLF receiver from a sound
card. In fact, if your sound card can manage a sample rate of at least
120 kSamples/second then you could use it to tune in WWVB at 60 kHz or
perhaps the German equivalent at 77 kHz if you can manage to sample at
twice that rate.

Other than WWVB, I don't think much is still down there. The earth's
ionosphere resonates at about 7 Hz if memory serves, so that might be a
lower limit to what you might want to try monitoring. The Omega system
was decommissioned years ago, though I've heard rumors that some parts
of it might still be in service in some corners of the world. Finally,
if there are any old FDM coaxial systems nearby, you might detect some
leakage from their traffic (I doubt there are any who still use this
method to trunk VF traffic together, but if there are a few, you might
still hear it)

And yes, a very few radios have a third IF at 50 kHz which you could use
such a sound card with. That experiment has potential.

73,

Jake Brodsky
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

Yeah, everything looks easy in theory. Computers are serious noise
machines.

You've probably seen this website:
http://www.vlf.it/

Think of painting a room. Isn't 90% of the work the preparation? Well,
in signal analysis, conditioning the signal is a serious chunk of the
work. Once you have something clean, then digital analysis can be done.


If you do build any of those designs on vlf.it, you may want to
investigate better (lower noise) op amps.

Jake Brodsky wrote:
Tom wrote:
wrote:
So I could make a short wave radio out of a laptop
using this software?

You can make an Extremely Low Frequency radio out of a computer,
tunable across the bandwidth of its sound system. You could tune up to
about 1/2 the sampling frequency of the sound systems analog-to-digital
converter. Typical sample rates are 48kHz but high end systems go up to
192 kHz so the tuning range would be up to 24 kHz and 96 kHz
respectively, provided the computer can execute the SDR DSP software
fast enough. If you connected an antenna to the microphone input, you
might hear something. To tune higher frequencies, you can use a
conventional superhet receiver as a tunable downconverter, connecting
its last IF (if higher than the computer's audio input range) to a
fixed downconverter, e.g., from 455 kHz to 12 kHz.


Err, Ummm, well, yeah, in THEORY you could. In practice you'll need to
decouple your computer from the antenna pretty well. This means you'll
need a very high Q antenna with a very low noise amplifier to isolate
it, and a very well isolated DC supply to power the amplifier. If those
things exist, you can build your very own VLF receiver from a sound
card. In fact, if your sound card can manage a sample rate of at least
120 kSamples/second then you could use it to tune in WWVB at 60 kHz or
perhaps the German equivalent at 77 kHz if you can manage to sample at
twice that rate.

[snip]
And yes, a very few radios have a third IF at 50 kHz which you could use
such a sound card with. That experiment has potential.

73,

Jake Brodsky
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

The point of my message was that you cannot make a SW radio out of a
laptop alone ( the question he asked) but could make a VLF receiver out
of a laptop that could be used with a downconverter to tune SW. Many
have done so. The downconverter is typically a superhet radio whose
last IF is downconverted through an add-on to the audio frequency
range.

The audio frequency laptop receiver need not have especially high
sampling frequency or sample size when used with a downconverter for
SW. A 10 kHz wide passband is adequate for most transmission modes and
is readily provided by a 48 kHz sample rate - even 24 kHz could be
enough. Because the front end tuner has AGC and can regulate levels
into the sound card, the latter's A/D converter having something
approaching 16 bit resolution will have more than adequate dynamic
range - even 8-bits could be sufficient.

Of course, the state of the art is for higher resolution A/D converters
and higher sampling rates for direct conversion for DSP. As discussed
elsewhere, great care must be taken in controlling interference from
the SDR to itself, via the antenna or other unintended coupling.

Tom

"Tom" wrote:

The point of my message was that you cannot make a SW radio out of a
laptop alone

yes that was my question

And now I'm clear on that...thanks!

I've just been debating buying a small portable SW
radio as I've gotten completely rid of TV and cable TV
and thinking maybe SW radio might be a good replacement
for it.

Sounds like it best for me to get a dedicated stand
lone small SW radio

I mistakenly assumed I could put some software on my
laptop and make a SW radio out it

wrote:
I've just been debating buying a small portable SW
radio as I've gotten completely rid of TV and cable TV
and thinking maybe SW radio might be a good replacement
for it.

Sounds like it best for me to get a dedicated stand
lone small SW radio

I mistakenly assumed I could put some software on my
laptop and make a SW radio out it

Well, SW is no equivalent to TV but it can be entertaining and
educational, in different ways. If you post a message requesting advice
on selecting a radio, you'll get lots! For not a lot of money, I would
suggest the Degen DE1103/Kaito KA1103 or the more attractive Eton E5,
all from the same factory with much in common, and in ascending order
of price.

Good luck!

Tom

Tom wrote:
Jake Brodsky wrote:
Tom wrote:
wrote:
So I could make a short wave radio out of a laptop
using this software?

You can make an Extremely Low Frequency radio out of a computer,
tunable across the bandwidth of its sound system. You could tune up to
about 1/2 the sampling frequency of the sound systems analog-to-digital
converter. Typical sample rates are 48kHz but high end systems go up to
192 kHz so the tuning range would be up to 24 kHz and 96 kHz
respectively, provided the computer can execute the SDR DSP software
fast enough. If you connected an antenna to the microphone input, you
might hear something. To tune higher frequencies, you can use a
conventional superhet receiver as a tunable downconverter, connecting
its last IF (if higher than the computer's audio input range) to a
fixed downconverter, e.g., from 455 kHz to 12 kHz.


Err, Ummm, well, yeah, in THEORY you could. In practice you'll need to
decouple your computer from the antenna pretty well. This means you'll
need a very high Q antenna with a very low noise amplifier to isolate
it, and a very well isolated DC supply to power the amplifier. If those
things exist, you can build your very own VLF receiver from a sound
card. In fact, if your sound card can manage a sample rate of at least
120 kSamples/second then you could use it to tune in WWVB at 60 kHz or
perhaps the German equivalent at 77 kHz if you can manage to sample at
twice that rate.

[snip]
And yes, a very few radios have a third IF at 50 kHz which you could use
such a sound card with. That experiment has potential.

73,

Jake Brodsky
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

The point of my message was that you cannot make a SW radio out of a
laptop alone ( the question he asked) but could make a VLF receiver out
of a laptop that could be used with a downconverter to tune SW. Many
have done so. The downconverter is typically a superhet radio whose
last IF is downconverted through an add-on to the audio frequency
range.

The audio frequency laptop receiver need not have especially high
sampling frequency or sample size when used with a downconverter for
SW. A 10 kHz wide passband is adequate for most transmission modes and
is readily provided by a 48 kHz sample rate - even 24 kHz could be
enough. Because the front end tuner has AGC and can regulate levels
into the sound card, the latter's A/D converter having something
approaching 16 bit resolution will have more than adequate dynamic
range - even 8-bits could be sufficient.

Of course, the state of the art is for higher resolution A/D converters
and higher sampling rates for direct conversion for DSP. As discussed
elsewhere, great care must be taken in controlling interference from
the SDR to itself, via the antenna or other unintended coupling.

Tom

All you are really doing is using the PC for the demod, which is
technically not a software defined radio. Mind you it can be done, but
it is really just an analog radio with some DSP.

wrote:
Tom wrote:
Jake Brodsky wrote:
Tom wrote:
wrote:
So I could make a short wave radio out of a laptop
using this software?

You can make an Extremely Low Frequency radio out of a computer,
tunable across the bandwidth of its sound system. You could tune up to
about 1/2 the sampling frequency of the sound systems analog-to-digital
converter. Typical sample rates are 48kHz but high end systems go up to
192 kHz so the tuning range would be up to 24 kHz and 96 kHz
respectively, provided the computer can execute the SDR DSP software
fast enough. If you connected an antenna to the microphone input, you
might hear something. To tune higher frequencies, you can use a
conventional superhet receiver as a tunable downconverter, connecting
its last IF (if higher than the computer's audio input range) to a
fixed downconverter, e.g., from 455 kHz to 12 kHz.


Err, Ummm, well, yeah, in THEORY you could. In practice you'll need to
decouple your computer from the antenna pretty well. This means you'll
need a very high Q antenna with a very low noise amplifier to isolate
it, and a very well isolated DC supply to power the amplifier. If those
things exist, you can build your very own VLF receiver from a sound
card. In fact, if your sound card can manage a sample rate of at least
120 kSamples/second then you could use it to tune in WWVB at 60 kHz or
perhaps the German equivalent at 77 kHz if you can manage to sample at
twice that rate.

[snip]
And yes, a very few radios have a third IF at 50 kHz which you could use
such a sound card with. That experiment has potential.

73,

Jake Brodsky
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

The point of my message was that you cannot make a SW radio out of a
laptop alone ( the question he asked) but could make a VLF receiver out
of a laptop that could be used with a downconverter to tune SW. Many
have done so. The downconverter is typically a superhet radio whose
last IF is downconverted through an add-on to the audio frequency
range.

The audio frequency laptop receiver need not have especially high
sampling frequency or sample size when used with a downconverter for
SW. A 10 kHz wide passband is adequate for most transmission modes and
is readily provided by a 48 kHz sample rate - even 24 kHz could be
enough. Because the front end tuner has AGC and can regulate levels
into the sound card, the latter's A/D converter having something
approaching 16 bit resolution will have more than adequate dynamic
range - even 8-bits could be sufficient.

Of course, the state of the art is for higher resolution A/D converters
and higher sampling rates for direct conversion for DSP. As discussed
elsewhere, great care must be taken in controlling interference from
the SDR to itself, via the antenna or other unintended coupling.

Tom

All you are really doing is using the PC for the demod, which is
technically not a software defined radio. Mind you it can be done, but
it is really just an analog radio with some DSP.

Technically, it is a VLF SDR with an analog downconverter. By itself,
it can receive wireless energy, tunes over a spectrum of less than 1/2
the sample rate, has variable IF bandwidth, can demodulate many modes,
does noise reduction, all through software. How is that not a software
defined radio? Practical SDR's are going to have analog elements in
them, if the modulation is to be interpreted by one's hearing.

Tom

Tom wrote:
wrote:
Tom wrote:
Jake Brodsky wrote:
Tom wrote:
wrote:
So I could make a short wave radio out of a laptop
using this software?

You can make an Extremely Low Frequency radio out of a computer,
tunable across the bandwidth of its sound system. You could tune up to
about 1/2 the sampling frequency of the sound systems analog-to-digital
converter. Typical sample rates are 48kHz but high end systems go up to
192 kHz so the tuning range would be up to 24 kHz and 96 kHz
respectively, provided the computer can execute the SDR DSP software
fast enough. If you connected an antenna to the microphone input, you
might hear something. To tune higher frequencies, you can use a
conventional superhet receiver as a tunable downconverter, connecting
its last IF (if higher than the computer's audio input range) to a
fixed downconverter, e.g., from 455 kHz to 12 kHz.


Err, Ummm, well, yeah, in THEORY you could. In practice you'll need to
decouple your computer from the antenna pretty well. This means you'll
need a very high Q antenna with a very low noise amplifier to isolate
it, and a very well isolated DC supply to power the amplifier. If those
things exist, you can build your very own VLF receiver from a sound
card. In fact, if your sound card can manage a sample rate of at least
120 kSamples/second then you could use it to tune in WWVB at 60 kHz or
perhaps the German equivalent at 77 kHz if you can manage to sample at
twice that rate.

[snip]
And yes, a very few radios have a third IF at 50 kHz which you could use
such a sound card with. That experiment has potential.

73,

Jake Brodsky
Amateur Radio Station AB3A

The point of my message was that you cannot make a SW radio out of a
laptop alone ( the question he asked) but could make a VLF receiver out
of a laptop that could be used with a downconverter to tune SW. Many
have done so. The downconverter is typically a superhet radio whose
last IF is downconverted through an add-on to the audio frequency
range.

The audio frequency laptop receiver need not have especially high
sampling frequency or sample size when used with a downconverter for
SW. A 10 kHz wide passband is adequate for most transmission modes and
is readily provided by a 48 kHz sample rate - even 24 kHz could be
enough. Because the front end tuner has AGC and can regulate levels
into the sound card, the latter's A/D converter having something
approaching 16 bit resolution will have more than adequate dynamic
range - even 8-bits could be sufficient.

Of course, the state of the art is for higher resolution A/D converters
and higher sampling rates for direct conversion for DSP. As discussed
elsewhere, great care must be taken in controlling interference from
the SDR to itself, via the antenna or other unintended coupling.

Tom

All you are really doing is using the PC for the demod, which is
technically not a software defined radio. Mind you it can be done, but
it is really just an analog radio with some DSP.

Technically, it is a VLF SDR with an analog downconverter. By itself,
it can receive wireless energy, tunes over a spectrum of less than 1/2
the sample rate, has variable IF bandwidth, can demodulate many modes,
does noise reduction, all through software. How is that not a software
defined radio? Practical SDR's are going to have analog elements in
them, if the modulation is to be interpreted by one's hearing.

Tom

In the strict sense, the SDRs are ADCs and massive DSP. You wouldn't
have analog IFs because that restricts the BW of the signal. That is,
nothing can be wider than the IF.

A true SDR could demod multiple signals at one time.

wrote:
Tom wrote:
wrote:
Tom wrote:
[snip]

The point of my message was that you cannot make a SW radio out of a
laptop alone ( the question he asked) but could make a VLF receiver out
of a laptop that could be used with a downconverter to tune SW. Many
have done so. The downconverter is typically a superhet radio whose
last IF is downconverted through an add-on to the audio frequency
range.

The audio frequency laptop receiver need not have especially high
sampling frequency or sample size when used with a downconverter for
SW. A 10 kHz wide passband is adequate for most transmission modes and
is readily provided by a 48 kHz sample rate - even 24 kHz could be
enough. Because the front end tuner has AGC and can regulate levels
into the sound card, the latter's A/D converter having something
approaching 16 bit resolution will have more than adequate dynamic
range - even 8-bits could be sufficient.

Of course, the state of the art is for higher resolution A/D converters
and higher sampling rates for direct conversion for DSP. As discussed
elsewhere, great care must be taken in controlling interference from
the SDR to itself, via the antenna or other unintended coupling.

Tom

All you are really doing is using the PC for the demod, which is
technically not a software defined radio. Mind you it can be done, but
it is really just an analog radio with some DSP.

Technically, it is a VLF SDR with an analog downconverter. By itself,
it can receive wireless energy, tunes over a spectrum of less than 1/2
the sample rate, has variable IF bandwidth, can demodulate many modes,
does noise reduction, all through software. How is that not a software
defined radio? Practical SDR's are going to have analog elements in
them, if the modulation is to be interpreted by one's hearing.

Tom

In the strict sense, the SDRs are ADCs and massive DSP. You wouldn't
have analog IFs because that restricts the BW of the signal. That is,
nothing can be wider than the IF.

A true SDR could demod multiple signals at one time.

From Wikipedia and what looks like an authoritatively written article:

"A software-defined radio (SDR) system is a radio communication system
which uses software for the modulation and demodulation of radio
signals."

From the ARRL Technology Task Force Report 2001
http://www.arrl.org/announce/reports-01/tt.html:

"Most software receivers have an analog front end consisting of
band-pass filtering, a low-noise RF amplifier to set a low system noise
level, a local oscillator and mixer to heterodyne the signal to an
intermediate frequency (IF) where analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion,
digital filtering and demodulation takes place. Recently, however,
there are some software receivers that perform A/D conversion
immediately after the antenna."

Your "strict sense" and "true SDR" interpretations are much too narrow
and illogical. that's like saying a radio is not a radio unless it can
receive the highest possible frequency. A crystal radio is still a
radio; a VLF software defined radio is very much a software defined
radio whether it demodulates one or many signals. Neither needs to use
state of the art technology to continue to be so defined. A notebook
computer capable of demodulating via software a VLF radio signal
coupled to its sound card input is therefore a radio receiver defined
by software.

Putting a downconverter in front of either the crystal radio or the
software defined radio simply adds the adjective "superheterodyne" to
their descriptors. These descriptors define the sub-classes of radios
to which a particular implementation belongs; the sub-class of radios
called software defined radios has many sub-classes of its own,
including both purpose built hardware/software systems and general
purpose hardware such as a personal computer running SDR software.

Tom