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#21
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
Peter O. Brackett wrote:
Well, as we all "know" the current wave on a dipole antenna is exceedingly close to sinusoidal, but not [exactly] sinusoidal, because if it were exactly sinusoidal it wouldn't be radiating. That [small] difference between the actual current distribution on an antenna and the actual current distribution on a transmission line is the [tell-tale] residual that separates us from an exact analytic expression for the driving point impedance of a dipole. Of course, but for conceptual purposes, both Balanis and Kraus seem to give us permission to consider the current distribution to be sinusoidal for "thin-wire" dipoles. Kraus says: "... it is assumed that the current distribution is sinusoidal. Current-distribution measurements indicate that this is a good assumption provided that the antenna is thin, i.e. when the conductor diameter is less than, say, lambda/100." Balanis agrees: "If the diameter of each wire is very small (d lambda), the ideal standing wave pattern of the current along the arms of the dipole is sinusoidal with a null at the end." It would be interesting to compare how closely the input impedance of a 1/2 wave lossless feed line of appropriate Zo (Say 600 Ohms?) terminated in a 73 Ohm resistor would approximate that of a "real" dipole. At resonance it would be 73 Ohms at least. Of greater interest might be the construction of a stub using resistance wire to simulate the "loss" to radiation plus all the other losses. As one of gurus on r.r.a.a said, "One can replace the resonant antenna with a dummy load without changing anything." :-) -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
#22
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
Richard:
[snip] Beliefs. -sigh- Is this one of those transcendental statements about navel gazing? [snip] No... it's not transcendental it's purely algebraic! (grin) [snip] Everywhere... Even in the near field of an antenna. No. Not even in the near field of an antenna. [snip] Where then is Zo = 377 Ohms? [snip] That is an antenna itself has no effect on the fundamental u and e of the media in which it is immersed. Wrong. [snip] Surely uo, eo, Zo and c (velocity of light) are fundamental and invariant properties of "free space", no? [snip] After all the antenna is very small, and free space is very large (grin), and so a tiny antenna cannot change u and e everywhere! Abstracting from near space to everywhere is the source of your error. [snip] No, I'm "contracting" from outer space to near space... using the contravarient tensor! [snip] The waves are not plane where the waves are not plane, but... Is this a Zen "but?" [snip] If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? If an antenna radiates somewhere in the Universe and there are no receivers, does it really radiate? [snip] There might just also be plane waves passing through identically the same region of space, say emanating from a more distant antenna. Wrong. [snip] Oh, and here I thought that at least tiny remnants of all radiation eventually passes through every part of space, filling all of space as it expands throughout the Universe.. [snip] The ratio for those plane E and H fields will indeed be 377 Ohms over the exact same region of space where Zo is different because of simultaneous but non-planar waves. Wrong. [snip] I know that Special Relativity [Maxwell's equations] is not supported in full by General Relativity, but surely even though space is warped by mass, superposition must still be supported. The radiation in your neighbourhood is a superposition of suitably delayed and reduced (by path attenuation) of all radiation, no? [snip] So in fact... the wave impedance of free space can have many values simultaneously, one [universal?] constant value of ~377 Ohms for plane waves, while it may have many other [arbitrary] values for waves passing through the same region of space that are not plane. Thoughts, comments? Wrong. [snip] And here I thought I was going to be able to sell you a little corner of the Universe [very near the Brooklyn Bridge] that has any Zo you want. What? [snip] Peter, are you trying to bust loose a seized bearing? Most of this reads like the Molly Bloom citation from a technical translation of "Ulysses." 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC [snip] Molly Bloom? How did she get into this... I thought she was still living in the house on Eccles Street". What? Now Ulysses, he's my man! I miss Reg Edwards already :-( Regards, -- Pete K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL |
#23
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:39:25 GMT, "Peter O. Brackett"
wrote: Where then is Zo = 377 Ohms? Hi Peter, To how many places? Your question is rather oblique when we are discussing near fields and antenna as "transducer" [not a choice of term I subscribe to]. I seriously doubt that you've unhinged from the origins of that value, however, it bears only tangentially on the matter. That is an antenna itself has no effect on the fundamental u and e of the media in which it is immersed. Wrong. [snip] Surely uo, eo, Zo and c (velocity of light) are fundamental and invariant properties of "free space", no? And some toothpaste makes our teeth whiter, no? Your reply does nothing to answer your error, however. [snip] After all the antenna is very small, and free space is very large (grin), and so a tiny antenna cannot change u and e everywhere! Abstracting from near space to everywhere is the source of your error. [snip] No, I'm "contracting" from outer space to near space... using the contravarient tensor! Then you have misapplied it, clearly. Arguing does not take the place of easily demonstrable facts. AH! forgive me, wrong forum, arguing is classic substitution. However, the entertainment value is rather poorer this round. There might just also be plane waves passing through identically the same region of space, say emanating from a more distant antenna. Wrong. [snip] Oh, and here I thought that at least tiny remnants of all radiation eventually passes through every part of space, filling all of space as it expands throughout the Universe.. Are "thoughts" related to "beliefs?" Bloated speculations of background radiation don't change the basic assertion that in the near field, there is nothing that remotely approaches the presumed 377 Ohm specification. You've both (earlier) acknowledged this and (have since) challenged it with a semantic fog such as: I know that Special Relativity [Maxwell's equations] is not supported in full by General Relativity, but surely even though space is warped by mass, superposition must still be supported. The radiation in your neighbourhood is a superposition of suitably delayed and reduced (by path attenuation) of all radiation, no? EZNEC demonstrates the violation of your "beliefs," yes? I miss Reg Edwards already :-( Certainly you're a poor substitute for Punchinello. (and Kelvin is winding up a pitch to wing a chunk of chalk off your noggin.) 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#24
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
Richard:
[snip] To how many places? Your question is rather oblique when we are discussing near fields and antenna as "transducer" [not a choice of term I subscribe to]. [snip] OK, ok... you've busted me... I admit that circuit theory is on really shaky ground. Although circuit theory was developed by Ohm, Kirchoff and others before Maxwell presented the world with his celebrated equations, we can all agree that circuit theory is a very poor (one dimensional) approximation to field theory. Circuits are a thoroughly useless affair dealing only with poorly understood approximations to the "real deal"...waves! I admit it, there is no such thing as "voltage", which after all is only the value V of a definite line integral of the vector field that depends upon the somewhat arbitrary path of integration, chosen by the integrator, through the appropriate E field, and so consequently there is no such thing as a "real" driving point impedance Z = V/I. The only reality is the characteristic or wave impedance! There I've said it! So... youv'e got me... I agree... we should not really be messing about trying to define phoney "transducer" functions between circuit theoretic variables (V, I) and wave theoretic variables (E, H) since the former have such an ephemeral existence. Still in all... one wonders... do circuits and waves, charge particles (electrons) and waves particles (photons) have any truck with each other or... do they lead entirely separate lives? What would you call the intermediaries between reality and approximation? I'm very sorry to have brought up the subject... I've probably confused the OP, and I am here and now prepared to recant my heresy, before you light the kindling beneath my feet, heh, heh... I solemly swear that an antenna is not a "transducer" between circuits and waves! (grin) But... ahem... the sun still has spots! Kathy, bring me another glass of that Rivaner! Molly Bloom indeed! -- Pete K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL I seriously doubt that you've unhinged from the origins of that value, however, it bears only tangentially on the matter. That is an antenna itself has no effect on the fundamental u and e of the media in which it is immersed. Wrong. [snip] Surely uo, eo, Zo and c (velocity of light) are fundamental and invariant properties of "free space", no? And some toothpaste makes our teeth whiter, no? Your reply does nothing to answer your error, however. [snip] After all the antenna is very small, and free space is very large (grin), and so a tiny antenna cannot change u and e everywhere! Abstracting from near space to everywhere is the source of your error. [snip] No, I'm "contracting" from outer space to near space... using the contravarient tensor! Then you have misapplied it, clearly. Arguing does not take the place of easily demonstrable facts. AH! forgive me, wrong forum, arguing is classic substitution. However, the entertainment value is rather poorer this round. There might just also be plane waves passing through identically the same region of space, say emanating from a more distant antenna. Wrong. [snip] Oh, and here I thought that at least tiny remnants of all radiation eventually passes through every part of space, filling all of space as it expands throughout the Universe.. Are "thoughts" related to "beliefs?" Bloated speculations of background radiation don't change the basic assertion that in the near field, there is nothing that remotely approaches the presumed 377 Ohm specification. You've both (earlier) acknowledged this and (have since) challenged it with a semantic fog such as: I know that Special Relativity [Maxwell's equations] is not supported in full by General Relativity, but surely even though space is warped by mass, superposition must still be supported. The radiation in your neighbourhood is a superposition of suitably delayed and reduced (by path attenuation) of all radiation, no? EZNEC demonstrates the violation of your "beliefs," yes? I miss Reg Edwards already :-( Certainly you're a poor substitute for Punchinello. (and Kelvin is winding up a pitch to wing a chunk of chalk off your noggin.) 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#25
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:55:52 GMT, "Peter O. Brackett"
wrote: OK, ok... you've busted me... Hi Peter, Sure, and without being... elliptical. Myself, I find Joyce rather a Mick awash in beer soaked imaginings in comparison to Henry Miller and The Cosmodemonic Telegraph Company of North America. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#26
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
Peter O. Brackett wrote:
Correct, but don't we all believe that the wave impedance of "free space" is approximately 377 Ohms... Everywhere... Even in the near field of an antenna. That is an antenna itself has no effect on the fundamental u and e of the media in which it is immersed. u and e are defined only in terms of and as affecting "plane wave" [TEM mode?] propagation, and... After all the antenna is very small, and free space is very large (grin), and so a tiny antenna cannot change u and e everywhere! The fields E and H in the "near region" of an antenna where the waves are not "plane" on the other hand may not be related by 377 Ohms, simply because the waves emanating from the "near" antenna are not plane, but... There might just also be plane waves passing through identically the same region of space, say emanating from a more distant antenna. The ratio for those plane E and H fields will indeed be 377 Ohms over the exact same region of space where Zo is different because of simultaneous but non-planar waves. So in fact... the wave impedance of free space can have many values simultaneously, one [universal?] constant value of ~377 Ohms for plane waves, while it may have many other [arbitrary] values for waves passing through the same region of space that are not plane. Thoughts, comments? I don't believe I've ever encountered the term "wave impedance of free space", and its use is certain to cause confusion, as I sense here. The *intrinsic* impedance of free space is 377 ohms. The *wave* impedance of an EM wave in that medium is 377 ohms if it's a plane wave in the far field of a radiator, and some other value if it's close to an antenna or other conductor or dielectric. The *intrinsic* impedance of free space is determined only by the conductivity, permittivity, and permeability of the medium; the impedance of a wave is governed not only by the intrinsic impedance of the medium but also other factors. If you have a reference that defines and uses the term "wave impedance of free space", I'd like to look it up to see how the author deals with this potentially confusing combination of terms. If it does indeed "have many values simultaneously", it's pretty useless in my opinion. Roy Lewallen, W7EL |
#27
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
Peter O. Brackett wrote:
Circuits are a thoroughly useless affair dealing only with poorly understood approximations to the "real deal"...waves! What? No lumped inductors in reality? :-) What about the measured 3 nS delay through a 100 uH coil? -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
#28
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
Cecil:
[snip] "Cecil Moore" wrote in message . .. Peter O. Brackett wrote: Circuits are a thoroughly useless affair dealing only with poorly understood approximations to the "real deal"...waves! What? No lumped inductors in reality? :-) What about the measured 3 nS delay through a 100 uH coil? -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com [snip] Delay through a coil... what is that? Heh, heh... Nickola Tesla would be rolling over in his grave if he could hear us discussing a possible dichotomy between lumped and distributed systems. Nickola "lived" in the intersticies between the wave theoretic and circuit theoretic fabrics of reality. It is interesting is it not, that the "only" element of circuit theory that allows for "action at a distance" [a.k.a. "field effects"] is that of mutual inductance "M". Circuit theoretic elements; R, L, C, and M... Other than "M" circuit/network theoretic concepts are devoid of the wave theoretic aspects of the celebrated Maxwell/Heaviside partial differential equations. Funny what you can do with "M". Variometers, Tesla coils, and such... -- Pete K1PO Indialantic By-the-Sea, FL |
#29
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 02:38:37 GMT, "Peter O. Brackett"
wrote: It is interesting is it not, that the "only" element of circuit theory that allows for "action at a distance" [a.k.a. "field effects"] is that of mutual inductance "M". Hi Peter, What happened to... capacitance? The Leyden jar proved "action at a distance," literally, long before folks started choking. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#30
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Is antenna a transducer to 377 ohms?
Peter O. Brackett wrote:
Nickola Tesla would be rolling over in his grave if he could hear us discussing a possible dichotomy between lumped and distributed systems. Nickola "lived" in the intersticies between the wave theoretic and circuit theoretic fabrics of reality. Some very interesting information on that subject is contained in: "Class Notes: Tesla Coils and the Failure of Lumped-Element Circuit Theory" by K. L. Corum (KB1EUD) and J. F. Corum (K1AON) http://www.ttr.com/corum/index.htm More very good information on RF coils is found in an IEEE paper by Drs. Corum at: http://www.ttr.com/TELSIKS2001-MASTER-1.pdf It's hard to look at the Figure 2 diagram of "a capacitively tuned resonator" and not see a 75m mobile antenna with top hat. Equations (32) for velocity factor and (51) for characteristic impedance are of particular value to amateur radio operators. Having a good approximation for characteristic impedance and velocity factor for a bugcatcher mobile loading coil allows an understandable analysis of a mobile antenna system. I'm working on a web page based on those two papers. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
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