hi

kinda recently i stumbled onto a web site or article (ad) from someone
that was making a 12v regulator that took 12v from batteries to supply
your rig w/a more stable voltage

I lost that link and can't seem to find it or google it


anyone happen to have it??


thanks

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:34:55 GMT, ml wrote:

hi

kinda recently i stumbled onto a web site or article (ad) from someone
that was making a 12v regulator that took 12v from batteries to supply
your rig w/a more stable voltage

I lost that link and can't seem to find it or google it

Hi Myles,

That may be a blessing in disguise. A linear regulator will always
exhibit a lower voltage out than the voltage in. If you have 12V in,
you cannot have 12V out. It would have to be less. An expensive one
might offer a drop of tenths of a volt (11.6V to 11.9V out from 12.0V
in), but this depends on the current draw. Most Ham equipment is not
rated at 12V, but rather at 13.6V which is the potential of fully
charged batteries (2.25V per cell). The "12V regulator" you were
considering could easily drop the difference (1.6V) in an effort to
maintain a constant 12V. This is not a boon to maximizing output
power if that is your goal.

A switcher style regulator can be more efficient, but it will cost
much more too. Switchers can take a considerable range of input
voltages and supply a fairly consistent voltage at many loads. There
are switchers that can supply MORE voltage than what is applied to
their inputs, but at a cost of demanding MORE current from that
source. Think of switchers as a see-saw that exhibit a constant of
proportionality in power (less some loss). For instance, if you
needed 12V @ 20A, your switcher could convert it from 6V @ 40A, or it
could convert it from 24V @ 5A. [Actually, no one switcher design
could accommodate such a wide range with equal efficiency, but there
are designs tailored to either situation.]

However, if you demand too much current from your source, then no
regulator is going to supply it and regulation is going to fail.

Often, the best use of regulation is to keep circuits from going
haywire if the voltage droops excessively during transmission.
Unfortunately, during transmission, this is a condition of maximum
current demand. Basically, if your voltage droops too much, the
battery is either shot (bad cell) or under capacity. Get a new
battery, or get a battery with more A/H capacity. This alone could
make up the need for "regulation."

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

dear rich:

Hi , thanks for the reply.
the device i saw sure was a switcher"" i agree analog yuck

my goal wasn't so much strictly max power per say but to keep power
constant, so if my , on batt power had to be 75w vs 100w i could live
w/that but as the bat voltage droped so would my 'power' etc and
perhaps add a little ''unpredictability'' kinda

my presumption was the regulators would be at least 86% efficient,(manuf
spec's) while not great i figured if i simply got more batteries as
soon as i put load past a certain run time volts would sag w/o a reg

so the question sorta became do i add more battery to compensaate for
the loss of 'regulator' to get the time i need or simply just pile up
the batteries

right now i figured 4--8d sized gell would do the trick w/a little
help from a regulator

whcih do you think is most efficent?



In article ,
Richard Clark wrote:

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:34:55 GMT, ml wrote:

hi

kinda recently i stumbled onto a web site or article (ad) from someone
that was making a 12v regulator that took 12v from batteries to supply
your rig w/a more stable voltage

I lost that link and can't seem to find it or google it

Hi Myles,

That may be a blessing in disguise. A linear regulator will always
exhibit a lower voltage out than the voltage in. If you have 12V in,
you cannot have 12V out. It would have to be less. An expensive one
might offer a drop of tenths of a volt (11.6V to 11.9V out from 12.0V
in), but this depends on the current draw. Most Ham equipment is not
rated at 12V, but rather at 13.6V which is the potential of fully
charged batteries (2.25V per cell). The "12V regulator" you were
considering could easily drop the difference (1.6V) in an effort to
maintain a constant 12V. This is not a boon to maximizing output
power if that is your goal.

A switcher style regulator can be more efficient, but it will cost
much more too. Switchers can take a considerable range of input
voltages and supply a fairly consistent voltage at many loads. There
are switchers that can supply MORE voltage than what is applied to
their inputs, but at a cost of demanding MORE current from that
source. Think of switchers as a see-saw that exhibit a constant of
proportionality in power (less some loss). For instance, if you
needed 12V @ 20A, your switcher could convert it from 6V @ 40A, or it
could convert it from 24V @ 5A. [Actually, no one switcher design
could accommodate such a wide range with equal efficiency, but there
are designs tailored to either situation.]

However, if you demand too much current from your source, then no
regulator is going to supply it and regulation is going to fail.

Often, the best use of regulation is to keep circuits from going
haywire if the voltage droops excessively during transmission.
Unfortunately, during transmission, this is a condition of maximum
current demand. Basically, if your voltage droops too much, the
battery is either shot (bad cell) or under capacity. Get a new
battery, or get a battery with more A/H capacity. This alone could
make up the need for "regulation."

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:12:04 GMT, ml wrote:

my presumption was the regulators would be at least 86% efficient,(manuf
spec's) while not great i figured if i simply got more batteries as
soon as i put load past a certain run time volts would sag w/o a reg

Hi Myles,

86% seems rather poor for a switcher that is dedicated to 13.6V (or
lower) in and 12V (or higher) out. I would have expected it in the
90s.

so the question sorta became do i add more battery to compensaate for
the loss of 'regulator' to get the time i need or simply just pile up
the batteries

Depends on the quality of the batteries and how close they track.

right now i figured 4--8d sized gell would do the trick w/a little
help from a regulator

whcih do you think is most efficent?

I agree with, and use what Ed suggests. I have two batteries floating
on a 20A capacity power supply. Each battery and supply are fitted
with high current connectors (the battery connectors used in electric
lift equipment). They also have additional high current connectors to
fan out to the equipment. Don't forget inline fuses.

My batteries are built from Hawker-Gates SLA CYCLON cells:
http://www.batteryweb.com/hawkersla-...bel=singlecell
which have 25 A/H capacity. This configuration allows me to swap
batteries and cells. The cell swapping, however, is only on the
occurrence of its failure, not as a routine.

The two batteries (no supply) were enough power for light duty over
field day weekends.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

dear richard:

86% seems rather poor for a switcher that is dedicated to 13.6V (or
lower) in and 12V (or higher) out. I would have expected it in the
90s.
Yeah i thought so too asking for more details got a chart 86-90percent
'depending'


Depends on the quality of the batteries and how close they track.
wel I'd be using east penn 8d gell or agm 12v told they are pretty
good


I agree with, and use what Ed suggests. I have two batteries floating
on a 20A capacity power supply. Each battery and supply are fitted
with high current connectors (the battery connectors used in electric
lift equipment). They also have additional high current connectors to
fan out to the equipment. Don't forget inline fuses.
how did you come by this kinda cable?

right now i am using gold 100amp lugs crimped to 10ga wire, prob not the
least resistance but my distaince is 10ft kinda long but on the radio
side i can't terminate 10ga to my little powerpoles i'd hate to pluck
strands off to ensure a fit/crimp

i could make a pig tail adapter but i dunno if thats a good idea feeding
a large ga cable then going to say a 1"step down stub naturally my
draw will be appro for that size wire but still

My batteries are built from Hawker-Gates SLA CYCLON cells:
http://www.batteryweb.com/hawkersla-...abel=singlecel
l
which have 25 A/H capacity. This configuration allows me to swap
batteries and cells. The cell swapping, however, is only on the
occurrence of its failure, not as a routine.

The two batteries (no supply) were enough power for light duty over
field day weekends.

*****ok this has me sorta confused, ive seen these batteries alot so to get
12volts (ish) you have to put them in series so then you only end up
w/25amps no? and i am guessing your load isn't 25amps

my goal was to get a few days of normal op on battery a little math
showed i'd need to dedicate a room for the batteries and my budget will
go bust just on those 2 d sized units which i havn't found around nyc
'used'''

thanks for all your help as always rich

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:47:22 GMT, ml wrote:

how did you come by this kinda cable?

Hi Myles,

Just wire. Speaker cable if I recall. Its the connector plugs that
are what I paid attention to. They are properly called "anderson type
disconnect" or "fork lift connectors." The specific SMH boxed part
no. is SY6319G1. An example is found at:
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/p.../ds-124103.htm
and is rated at 50A.

ive seen these batteries alot so to get
12volts (ish) you have to put them in series so then you only end up
w/25amps no? and i am guessing your load isn't 25amps

In series, yes. A standard configuration.

The load can be intermittent to 25A, and it is the peaks that can pull
the voltage and push a circuit into reset. One of my rigs is a Drake
TR7 that I had to rebuild. It will output 150W.

my goal was to get a few days of normal op on battery a little math
showed i'd need to dedicate a room for the batteries and my budget will
go bust just on those 2 d sized units which i havn't found around nyc
'used'''

That's hard to believe, especially when I found two batteries for the
price of less than one cell. (Of course, I also get to rummage
through a store called Boeing Surplus. Avionics trash is other
industry's gold.) Most folks simply buy a deep cycle RV or Marine
battery.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

ml wrote in :

hi

kinda recently i stumbled onto a web site or article (ad) from someone
that was making a 12v regulator that took 12v from batteries to supply
your rig w/a more stable voltage

I lost that link and can't seem to find it or google it


anyone happen to have it??


thanks


No, I don't although I recall seeing such an item in a recent
magazine.... CQ or QST?


However, why bother to overcomplicate things when simple will be
better anyway. As Richard Clark indicated, if you use a healthy, and
properly sized battery, you can't get any more pure DC than that. Float
it with a well regulated power supply at 13.6 volts and you'll have what
you're looking for.

Ed K7AAT

FLoat it with a well regulated power supply at 13.6 volts and you'll be
mopping up boiled-out battery acid a lot. 13.4 is the highest I'd go on a
float basis. 13.6-13.8 on an intermittent basis.

Jim


Float
it with a well regulated power supply at 13.6 volts and you'll have what
you're looking for.

Ed K7AAT

FLoat it with a well regulated power supply at 13.6 volts and you'll
be mopping up boiled-out battery acid a lot. 13.4 is the highest I'd
go on a float basis. 13.6-13.8 on an intermittent basis.

Jim


All I can say is that while working the last 32 years for one of the
countries largest Telecommunications Organizations, we floated all our
thousands of communications battery banks at 13.6 volts with excellent
results. No batteries dried out prematurely due to this float voltage...
in fact that is the figure recommended by a number of top battery
manufacturers such as Exide, GNB, C&D Technologies, etc.



Ed K7AAT

The following two guys sell battery Boosters. I have used both and would
recommend either one.

http://members.cox.net/w4rry/
http://stores.tgelectronics.org/about.html



"ml" wrote in message
...
hi

kinda recently i stumbled onto a web site or article (ad) from someone
that was making a 12v regulator that took 12v from batteries to supply
your rig w/a more stable voltage

I lost that link and can't seem to find it or google it


anyone happen to have it??


thanks