I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor. This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground. I was thinking of
putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the coax into the
basement. Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house. I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.

It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?

Thanks,

-JJ

wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to the
basement floor.

bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.

thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.

nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.

except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.

the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.


It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?

"Dave" wrote in message
. ..

wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor.

bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.

thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.

nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.

except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.

the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.


It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?





Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie

Jimmie D wrote:


Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie



Electrical service grounding via water pipes is common and acceptable.
Quoting from the 2005 NEC, which is the standard used in many or most
jurisdictions in the US:

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in
direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any
metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically
continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating
joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding
electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water
piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the
building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system
or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the
grounding electrode system.


I agree this is not a good solution for lightning protection.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...
Jimmie D wrote:


Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the
electrical ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning
protection. Nothing like having lightning run in on your plumbing while
taking a bath or have it run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of
test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie


Electrical service grounding via water pipes is common and acceptable.
Quoting from the 2005 NEC, which is the standard used in many or most
jurisdictions in the US:

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct
contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well
casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or
made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or
insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode
conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located
more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall
not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor
to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode
system.


I agree this is not a good solution for lightning protection.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Very common for local code to overide this and for good reason. You never
know when a piece of metal pipe is going to be replaced with plastic so a
ground rod has to be used with the electrical service.The plumber dont know
it is being used as a ground. and the electrician doesnt know all the metal
pipe has been replaced with PVC.Ground rods are cheap and easy to install.

Jimmie

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 00:33:03 -0500, "Jimmie D"
wrote:



Very common for local code to overide this and for good reason. You never
know when a piece of metal pipe is going to be replaced with plastic so a
ground rod has to be used with the electrical service.The plumber dont know
it is being used as a ground. and the electrician doesnt know all the metal
pipe has been replaced with PVC.Ground rods are cheap and easy to install.

Jimmie

There was a time when the expression "water pipe ground" was common.

Extra ground rods actually contribute to the risk unless the are tied
together with at least #6 wire. (NEC) Allowing the grounds to be
commoned through the power distribution will put appliances in the
loop with expensive results.

John Ferrell W8CCW

Jimmie D wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor.
bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.
thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.
nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.
except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.
the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.

It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?




Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie


Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around
it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.
--
Tom Horne

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 04:08:47 GMT, Thomas Horne
wrote:

Jimmie D wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor.
bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.
thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.
nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.
except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.
the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.

It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?




Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie


Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around

Ahhh...The water pipe must be bonded to the electrical system, but the
main ground must be at the entrance. Here, we have plastic water pipe
all the way to the main from the meter, yet we have to bond the meters
which are metal with plastic running in and plastic running out.

it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.

It's really easy to avoid here. We do not have metal piping available
for grounding.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 04:08:47 GMT, Thomas Horne
wrote:

Jimmie D wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor.
bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.
thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.
nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.
except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.
the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.

It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?


Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie

Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around

Ahhh...The water pipe must be bonded to the electrical system, but the
main ground must be at the entrance. Here, we have plastic water pipe
all the way to the main from the meter, yet we have to bond the meters
which are metal with plastic running in and plastic running out.

it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.

It's really easy to avoid here. We do not have metal piping available
for grounding.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

That has nothing to do with not using an underground metal water pipe
that is present on the premises.
--
Tom Horne

On Apr 2, 8:07 am, Roger wrote:
Ahhh...The water pipe must be bonded to the electrical system, but the
main ground must be at the entrance. Here, we have plastic water pipe
all the way to the main from the meter, yet we have to bond the meters
which are metal with plastic running in and plastic running out.
...

It's really easy to avoid here. We do not have metal piping available
for grounding.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger is correct here. Underground water pipe electrode is no
longer sufficient as the earth ground in most locations for a long
list of reasons. Yes, that water pipe must be bonded to the AC
electric so that plumbing is electrically same voltages as everything
else inside the house - human safety. Public utility water system may
have voltages different from AC electric if the two are not bonded -
as has been observed when a fault was created outside the building.
Destructive currents entering on that water system must be eliminated
by being bonded to AC electric.

Many other reasons why AC breaker box must be bonded to the cold
water pipe. Yes cold water pipe may act as an earthing electrode.
But it is no longer sufficient as the earthing electrode.

An earthing electrode - one that all utilities must use - is not the
water pipe. All utilities must connect to a separate and dedicated
earthing electrode defined by code (as defined in Article 250.52 A -
paragraphs 2 through 7). The code defines 7 types of earthing
electrodes. The only electrode not sufficient is cold water pipe -
paragraph 1.

For lightning, an antenna (or satellite dish) is typically treated
as if a separate structure as demonstrated in this application note:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf
Antenna wire must connect to the same building 'single point' earthing
electrode. IOW any wire in any cable going to the station must first
connect to that single point earthing electrode (either by hardwire or
protector) before entering the building. Best is to have the antenna
earthing also connected, by underground wire, to that same single
point ground.

This for lightning protection is beyond what is called for by
National Electrical Code for numerous reasons. First, NEC only
addresses human safety. The OP is asking about transistor safety.
Second, the code does little to address impedance. Grounding for
human safety is mostly about resistance - not impedance. Third, any
grounding system dependent on some other trade (ie plumber) is no
longer considered safe or sufficient.

A ground system must meet NEC requirements. Then it must exceed
those requirements. For lightning protection, a cold water pipe is
not longer considered a good solution because that earthing electrode
is just not sufficient.

Also better is to earth lightning rods and antennas before that
ground wire connects to a building's single point ground. Notice the
underground wire connection between antenna earth ground and building
earth ground.

And finally a purpose of earthing that is beyond what the NEC
requires. A station needs earthing that provided both equipotential
and conductivity. Code concentrates on conductivity. But for
equipotential, we do things beyond what is normally sufficient for
human safety. We install Ufer grounds or halo grounds that completely
surround the protected facility. We relocate all utilities so that
each wire in each cable makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to that
common earth electrode. Any exception to the single point earth
ground (as defined in code) is not permitted when also earthing for
transistor safety. Route earthing wires to be separate from all other
wires, no splices, no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit, etc.
All earthing wires remain electrically separate until all meet at the
single point ground. Conditions beyond what code demands or permits.

Consider with care information in that figure in:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf
Things recommended are not immediately obvious. Reasons for this
involve both equipotential and conductivity. Both are required for
station protection.