"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...
Jimmie D wrote:


Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the
electrical ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning
protection. Nothing like having lightning run in on your plumbing while
taking a bath or have it run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of
test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie


Electrical service grounding via water pipes is common and acceptable.
Quoting from the 2005 NEC, which is the standard used in many or most
jurisdictions in the US:

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct
contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well
casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or
made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or
insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode
conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located
more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall
not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor
to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode
system.


I agree this is not a good solution for lightning protection.

73,
Gene
W4SZ

Very common for local code to overide this and for good reason. You never
know when a piece of metal pipe is going to be replaced with plastic so a
ground rod has to be used with the electrical service.The plumber dont know
it is being used as a ground. and the electrician doesnt know all the metal
pipe has been replaced with PVC.Ground rods are cheap and easy to install.

Jimmie

In article .com,
" wrote:

I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor. This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground. I was thinking of
putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the coax into the
basement. Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house. I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.

Please get a book on antennas to learn how to properly set one up.

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 11:14:20 -0600, Bob Miller
wrote:


try

http://www.w8ji.com/ground_systems.htm

Although he doesn't say so, Tom's towers are on top of a mountain.



bob
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 00:33:03 -0500, "Jimmie D"
wrote:



Very common for local code to overide this and for good reason. You never
know when a piece of metal pipe is going to be replaced with plastic so a
ground rod has to be used with the electrical service.The plumber dont know
it is being used as a ground. and the electrician doesnt know all the metal
pipe has been replaced with PVC.Ground rods are cheap and easy to install.

Jimmie

There was a time when the expression "water pipe ground" was common.

Extra ground rods actually contribute to the risk unless the are tied
together with at least #6 wire. (NEC) Allowing the grounds to be
commoned through the power distribution will put appliances in the
loop with expensive results.

John Ferrell W8CCW

John Ferrell wrote:
On Tue, 2 Jan 2007 00:33:03 -0500, "Jimmie D"
wrote:



Very common for local code to overide this and for good reason. You never
know when a piece of metal pipe is going to be replaced with plastic so a
ground rod has to be used with the electrical service.The plumber dont know
it is being used as a ground. and the electrician doesnt know all the metal
pipe has been replaced with PVC.Ground rods are cheap and easy to install.

Jimmie

There was a time when the expression "water pipe ground" was common.

Extra ground rods actually contribute to the risk unless the are tied
together with at least #6 wire. (NEC) Allowing the grounds to be
commoned through the power distribution will put appliances in the
loop with expensive results.

John Ferrell W8CCW


Yep, that why we use "grounding" and "bonding" and why work should be
done by a certified electrician. Grounding should be taken back to a
single point so you dont get loops running through expensive
appliances.

Jimmie

"John Ferrell" wrote in message
...


snip


There was a time when the expression "water pipe ground" was common.

Extra ground rods actually contribute to the risk unless the are tied
together with at least #6 wire. (NEC) Allowing the grounds to be
commoned through the power distribution will put appliances in the
loop with expensive results.

John Ferrell W8CCW


I had an upgrade (by professional electrician) about five years ago on my 35
y/o house. He upgraded the service level from 100A to 200A, added some
outlets in the house and garage, etc ... stuff I've wanted since I moved in.
The house was built with cold-water-pipe ground and it appears to be at
least #8, maybe #6. The electrician said it could stay BUT he said code
required an additional ground stake driven into the soil near the service
entrance.

This is San Diego County CA. "Your mileage may vary."

One more thing, subject line "Yes, It's Really This Bad:" When I was a
teenager, two families in the neighborhood went all-out at Christmas with
the big outside lights. One guy said he kept blowing fuses (15A was the
standard for all the branches in all the houses), so he "solved" the problem
by substituting 25A fuses. Even as a snot-nosed kid I knew better.

Jimmie D wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor.
bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.
thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.
nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.
except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.
the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.

It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?




Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie


Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around
it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.
--
Tom Horne

On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 04:08:47 GMT, Thomas Horne
wrote:

Jimmie D wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor.
bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.
thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.
nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.
except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.
the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.

It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?




Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie


Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around

Ahhh...The water pipe must be bonded to the electrical system, but the
main ground must be at the entrance. Here, we have plastic water pipe
all the way to the main from the meter, yet we have to bond the meters
which are metal with plastic running in and plastic running out.

it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.

It's really easy to avoid here. We do not have metal piping available
for grounding.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger wrote:
On Mon, 02 Apr 2007 04:08:47 GMT, Thomas Horne
wrote:

Jimmie D wrote:
"Dave" wrote in message
. ..
wrote in message
oups.com...
I would like to propose a grounding arrangement for my [hypothetical]
antenna and get some feedback on it. I have access to the solid-copper
cold-water pipe that enters my home through the basement wall close to
the basement floor.
bad start

This pipe is used [in addition to cold water] for
the service entrance [circuit breaker box] ground.
thats bad news

I was thinking of putting an antenna outside on a pole and running the
coax into the
basement.
nope, not the way to do it right.

Then I would strip back several inches of the outer jacket
of the coax [axposing the braided shield] and connect the coax braid to
the cold water pipe using several hose clamps. This should ground the
coax directly to the service ground - the single point ground for the
house.
except the single point shouldn't be 'inside' the house.

I would add an arrester near the ground point. I would then run
the coax upstairs [about 10 feet] to the radio, where it would [via the
PL-259] connect to the transceiver chassis. The radio chassis will be
electrically bonded to peripheral equipment chassis'.
the radio chassis should be connected to the same single point ground, and
not via just the coax shield.

It seems that in the unlikely event [low altitude, semi-urban area]
that the antenna were struck by lightning, the energy [albeit
significant] would have no reason to propagate up to my station. Even
though it may elevate my house ground by thousands of volts [with
respect to some other ground point], the station should ride up with it
- and little current should flow in the coax at the station.

Am I whistling Dixie?


Hopefully you are not really using the water pipe for a ground for your
electrical service. Hopefully your plumbing is just bonded to the electrical
ground. Dont even think about using this for lightning protection. Nothing
like having lightning run in on your plumbing while taking a bath or have it
run in on yor ground and eat about $7K worth of test equipment(my bad).

Jimmie

Jimmie

DE KB3OPR

I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around

Ahhh...The water pipe must be bonded to the electrical system, but the
main ground must be at the entrance. Here, we have plastic water pipe
all the way to the main from the meter, yet we have to bond the meters
which are metal with plastic running in and plastic running out.

it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.

It's really easy to avoid here. We do not have metal piping available
for grounding.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

That has nothing to do with not using an underground metal water pipe
that is present on the premises.
--
Tom Horne

Thomas Horne wrote:


I am an electrician by craft. The US National Electric Code Requires
that underground metal water piping on the premise be used as a
grounding electrode for the electrical system. There is no way around


Ahhh...The water pipe must be bonded to the electrical system, but the
main ground must be at the entrance. Here, we have plastic water pipe
all the way to the main from the meter, yet we have to bond the meters
which are metal with plastic running in and plastic running out.

it. No matter how fast people talk you cannot avoid using an
underground metal piping system as a grounding electrode unless the
electrical inspector is incompetent.


It's really easy to avoid here. We do not have metal piping available
for grounding.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


That has nothing to do with not using an underground metal water pipe
that is present on the premises.
--
Tom Horne

that would really depend on the local AHJ (Authority Having
Jurisdiction).. For instance, in the City of Thousand Oaks, CA, only
Concrete Encased Grounding Electrodes (aka Ufer grounds) are allowed in
new construction. (other grounding electrodes are permitted, but you
better have the Ufer ground, and, of course, they would need to be
bonded together, per NEC). With respect to my house, built in 1998, I
don't think there is a bonding jumper from water pipe to the system
ground at the service entrance (which is a Ufer ground). Obviously,
there IS a jumper from the telco drop, the cable TV drop, etc. to the
ground at the service entrance (and all the "drops" are actually
underground services in plastic conduit). Partly this is because the
water service comes in on the opposite of the house from all the "wired"
utilities. I'll have to go take a look, though.

I believe the new code (which I don't have here to hand) does require
that metallic water piping, if any, be bonded to the electrical system
ground (presumably to eliminate "touch voltage").

I believe also, that the code prohibits use of a water pipe as the sole
grounding electrode (NEC 250-(a)(2) in 1999 code, 250.53(D)(2) 2002,2005
codes). As always in code matters, what the AHJ says takes precedence.

As a practical matter, a properly constructed Ufer ground is probably
lower impedance and more reliable than rods, wires, and pipes.

Jim Lux, P.E.
W6RMK