Cecil wrote,

Wes Stewart wrote:
Cecil and Yuri have been uncharacteristically silent, at least about
this thread since I started it. Frankly I expected some flak.

I haven't been paying attention. What's the bottom line? Another
software package that assumes current travels through a coil at
faster than the speed of light?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


How fast does light travel in copper, Cecil?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tdonaly wrote:
How fast does light travel in copper, Cecil?

Slower than air so the current into and out of a coil cannot
possibly be identical. It takes ~1 nS for light to travel
one foot through air. How on earth can it possibly travel
faster than that through a one foot long copper coil? You
guys are worshiping a religion completely divorced from
scientific fact.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil wrote,

Tdonaly wrote:
How fast does light travel in copper, Cecil?

Slower than air so the current into and out of a coil cannot
possibly be identical. It takes ~1 nS for light to travel
one foot through air. How on earth can it possibly travel
faster than that through a one foot long copper coil? You
guys are worshiping a religion completely divorced from
scientific fact.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere. Charge is conserved, Cecil. You
can't create it or destroy it. If the coil is storing charge somewhere
it must be acting like a capacitor, which is famous for doing just
that. Where does the coil store its charge?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tdonaly wrote:

SNIP


O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere. Charge is conserved, Cecil. You
can't create it or destroy it. If the coil is storing charge somewhere
it must be acting like a capacitor, which is famous for doing just
that. Where does the coil store its charge?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH


Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?

Dave Shrader wrote:
Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?

Don't know about Tom's physics, but mine says the net current in an
unterminated transmission line can be zero at one point and 100 amps
1/4 WL away. Tom (apparently) thinks that is a violation of the
conservation of charge principle.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote:
Dave Shrader wrote:

Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?


Don't know about Tom's physics, but mine says the net current in an
unterminated transmission line can be zero at one point and 100 amps
1/4 WL away. Tom (apparently) thinks that is a violation of the
conservation of charge principle.

Hey Cecil, What's this 'conservation of charge'?

I'm aware of the 'Conservation of Energy', 'Conservation of Momentum',
'conservation of our wetlands', etc.

For your example: Conservation of Energy yields: 1/2*L*I^2 = 1/2*C*V^2
at the high current end and the high voltage end respectively.

My Physics and my brain must be getting old!!

Dave Shrader wrote:
Hey Cecil, What's this 'conservation of charge'?

From _University_Physics_ 9th edition by Young and Freedman:
"principle of conservation of charge: The algebraic sum of all
the electric charges in any closed system is constant."
Example: If one combines a proton (+1) and an electron (-1)
one gets a neutron (0) which will often decay back into a
proton (+1) and an electron (-1).

In practice, it means that if N electrons flow into both ends
of a coil during 1/2 cycle, N electrons will flow out of both
ends of the same coil during the next 1/2 cycle. Thus, current
flowing into both ends of a phase-reversing coil at the same
time does NOT violate the conservation of charge principle
when averaged over an entire cycle.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Dave wrote,

Tdonaly wrote:

SNIP


O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere. Charge is conserved, Cecil. You
can't create it or destroy it. If the coil is storing charge somewhere
it must be acting like a capacitor, which is famous for doing just
that. Where does the coil store its charge?
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH


Two possibilities exist: 1) Charge is stored in the interwinding
capacitance; or, 2) EM radiation is occurring in the coil i.e. the
winding length is a significant portion of a wavelength!!

What's your Physics say?


It says you can radiate energy, but radiating charge is another
proposition. Also, charge has to be stored on the surface of
the conductor, not in it's own field. Energy can be stored there,
though.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Tdonaly wrote:
It says you can radiate energy, but radiating charge is another
proposition. Also, charge has to be stored on the surface of
the conductor, not in it's own field. Energy can be stored there,
though.

An unterminated transmission line reads zero net current at one point.
Does that mean there is no charge on the entire line? Do you understand
how net charge can clump together for standing waves between the two
zero current points?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Tdonaly wrote:
O.k., Cecil, let's suppose you're right. Since there's more
current going into a coil than coming out, then the coil must be
storing charge, somewhere.

Tom, Tom, Tom, we are talking about *net* current. The net current
in an unterminated transmission line can be zero while 1/4WL away,
it is 100 amps. Are you asserting that transmission lines don't
conserve charge? Would you please put your brain in gear?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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