On 1 Mar, 17:22, Gene Fuller wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
Dave wrote:
Cecil, as an engineer you should stick with standard vocabulary.

Just trying to appease the physicists, Dave. They are
arguing that it is not power until work is done. They
say that since reflected energy is not doing any work,
it cannot be reflected power. Therefore, reflected
power doesn't exist. It's purely semantics. The very
essence of an EM wave is its energy content.

So the real question is: Since standing waves obviously
exist and just as obviously cannot exist without two
coherent waves traveling in opposite directions, does
reflected energy exist? (That question seems to cause their
skivvies to get all bunched up.)

I will just be happy when they admit that reflected
EM waves possess a certain amount of energy that cannot
stand still and according to the theory of relativity
must necessarily travel at the speed of light.

Cecil,

Physicists know when power is equal to work and when it represents
undissipated flow of energy. No need to keep beating that dead horse.

I must have missed class the day they talked about obviousness. Why is
it "obvious" that standing waves cannot exist without coherent traveling
waves? Do you believe that traveling waves are somehow more pure or more
fundamental than standing waves?

Have you ever tried working out the mathematical details of the wave
equation when loaded with a standing wave trial solution? Did it explode
or otherwise fail? (Hint, the answer should be "no".)

The question of standing waves or traveling waves is purely one of
mathematical convenience. The physical phenomena are identical
regardless of your choice. Indeed, this is the point that seems to
always trip you. There is no added information from manipulating the
form of the equations. That is the sort of thing, if done carelessly,
that leads to adding power waves and other nonsense.

73,
Gene
W4SZ- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gene,
there are 12 authors on this thread dealing with a very, very
complicated question. All are self perceived experts and after 130
posts they are still in deadlocked positions. The clock is ticking and
there has been no white smoke pour out of the chimney
as yet. The fighting is rough since only one can be right so he can
rise above the others and where the the others descend into the rable.
This question is one of the most serious questions to have faced
mankind for eons and it correct determination is so imperitive to the
universe and to ham radio. For that reason the debate is being
recorded for prosterity so that all who follow can judge what manner
of men they are indeed what manner of self perceived experts they are.
The winner will be the one that is more elequent more overbearing and
more obnoxious than any other in the group such that it may well be
not the best scientist to rise to the top but one who is most deviled
where others no longer can stay in their presence. This has happened
before where we have lost many an experienced antenna person to
venture off into other fields to the loss of all antenna enthusiasts.
This is a fight to maintain a position or to attain a position as an
expert in amateur radio So it is not to be taken lightly as past
winners have brought this newsgroup down to the level which we now
hold. There is not room for a lot of experts on this group so
descisions about who is most obnoxious have to be decided. So stand
clear of the garbage that is now flying in all directions and keep
your powder dry.Sooner or later one will be bragging that they
invented the WWW and then another will claim something else and it is
then that real savagery will enter the fray.
The clock is still ticking and still no white smoke comming out of the
chimney!
Art