Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

On May 11, 6:33 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
Perhaps you wouldn't mind showing your work.

I have added some new material to my web page
concerning this subject.

http://www.w5dxp.com/current2.htm
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

You'll forgive me if I'm not in a mood to be generous. You might
consider adding some ordinates to your phase plots. Also, some credit
to Roy for making all of the calculations for you might be appropriate
as well. (You might ask him how he does it.) We still haven't seen
any of your work. By work I mean calculations, not typing i.e.
assumptions, deductions, inferences, and proclamations. Assuming
there are actual values, it would be good to know, for example, what
calculations were made in order to arrive at the phase angles in the
plots. The only equations you provide are for instantaneous amplitude
as a function of phase angle for a standing wave. Obviously that
isn't suffiencient for obtaining the data in your plots. It's very
poorly done. D+

ac6xg

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
You'll forgive me if I'm not in a mood to be generous. You might
consider adding some ordinates to your phase plots.

Here's the definition of "ordinate":
"The y-coordinate on an (x,y) graph"

I'm not sure what you are asking for. The graphs were
generated by Excel. What exactly are you saying? Do
you want me to add the dots for the data points?

Also, some credit
to Roy for making all of the calculations for you might be appropriate
as well. (You might ask him how he does it.)

How he interfaces to NEC? I'm not sure what you are asking
for. EZNEC is a great piece of software but the calculating
engine is NEC. I doubt that even Roy knows the NEC equations.

We still haven't seen
any of your work. By work I mean calculations, not typing i.e.
assumptions, deductions, inferences, and proclamations. Assuming
there are actual values, it would be good to know, for example, what
calculations were made in order to arrive at the phase angles in the
plots.

I don't know what "work" you are asking for. All I did
was run EZNEC simulations and report the results.

The phase angles are calculated and reported by the NEC
calculating engine. I don't know what equations they use,
but probably the method of moments equations. I believe
Balanis has a chapter on MOM equations.

The only equations you provide are for instantaneous amplitude
as a function of phase angle for a standing wave. Obviously that
isn't suffiencient for obtaining the data in your plots. It's very
poorly done. D+

All the data is directly from EZNEC, Jim. Download coil505.EZ
and run it yourself. It is NEC that is doing the calculations.
The data reported by EZNEC was entered into coil505.xls and
Excel produced the graphs. Your objections seem really
strange and petty.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:

You'll forgive me if I'm not in a mood to be generous. You might
consider adding some ordinates to your phase plots.


Here's the definition of "ordinate":
"The y-coordinate on an (x,y) graph"
I'm not sure what you are asking for. The graphs were
generated by Excel. What exactly are you saying? Do
you want me to add the dots for the data points?

Let me apologize in advance to the group for being forced,
reluctantly, into the pedantic exercise which follows.

Dear Cecil -
As of this moment there are no numbers on your y-axes to indicate how
many degrees your plots represent. You will need to tell Excel that
you want to have numbers there - and not just any numbers. You want
numbers that represent the value of the y coordinants for points on
your plotted curve. You must program your Excel spreadsheet to do
this because it is no more omniscient than the people who would view
your webpage.

I'm not sure what you are asking
for. EZNEC is a great piece of software but the calculating
engine is NEC. I doubt that even Roy knows the NEC equations.

Well, it's become apparent that you don't know them. Even still, you
claim be wiser than Kraus on this subject. Certainly bold, if not
altogether ludicrous. And all this is for no reason other than the
fact that you can run a program that you didn't write (the author of
which you relentlessly berate) to perform calculations that you can't
explain.

ac6xg

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"I believe Balanis has a chapter on MOM equations."

So does Kraus. See page 461 in the 3rd edition of "Antennas".

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
...
Dear Cecil -
As of this moment there are no numbers on your y-axes to indicate how
many degrees your plots represent. You will need to tell Excel that
you want to have numbers there - and not just any numbers. You want
numbers that represent the value of the y coordinants for points on
your plotted curve. You must program your Excel spreadsheet to do
this because it is no more omniscient than the people who would view
your webpage.
...

Well, you damn idiot, at least you no longer dispute it, you just
dispute how much you have been in error. My gawd, we are actually
making progress! 8-)

JS

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Jim Kelley wrote:

You'll forgive me if I'm not in a mood to be generous. You might
consider adding some ordinates to your phase plots. Also, some credit
to Roy for making all of the calculations for you might be appropriate
as well. (You might ask him how he does it.) We still haven't seen
any of your work. By work I mean calculations, not typing i.e.
assumptions, deductions, inferences, and proclamations. Assuming
there are actual values, it would be good to know, for example, what
calculations were made in order to arrive at the phase angles in the
plots. The only equations you provide are for instantaneous amplitude
as a function of phase angle for a standing wave. Obviously that
isn't suffiencient for obtaining the data in your plots. It's very
poorly done. D+

EZNEC uses NEC-2 for calculations and produces results essentially
identical to those from NEC-2. The method is well documented in the
NEC-2 manual, available on the web. Like NEC-2, EZNEC reports the
magnitude and phase of current at each segment of the model. It
calculates these from fundamental electromagnetic principles. No attempt
is made by NEC-2 or EZNEC to consider the antenna as a transmission line
or calculate any supposed traveling waves. Decomposition of the
verifiable NEC/EZNEC results into traveling waves or anything else is
strictly Cecil's doing, and any conclusions he reaches from it are also
his only.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Richard Harrison wrote:
Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"I believe Balanis has a chapter on MOM equations."

So does Kraus. See page 461 in the 3rd edition of "Antennas".

I don't have the third edition, but the explanation of MOM first
appeared in the second edition which I do have. It's a very clear and
concise explanation of the method. I highly recommend it for anyone
wanting a basic understanding of how NEC and MININEC based modeling
programs work but not needing the very detailed mathematical treatment
of the NEC or MININEC manual.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
As of this moment there are no numbers on your y-axes to indicate how
many degrees your plots represent.

This is simply a false statement, Jim. I see the numbers on my
y-axes when I click on coil505.xls and open it with Excel. I
see the numbers on my web page using Firefox and Explorer. But
whatever problem you are having, I'm willing to help you solve
it. How have you managed to make the y-axis numbers disappear
so you can give me a hard time about it?

Well, it's become apparent that you don't know them. Even still, you
claim be wiser than Kraus on this subject.

Well, Kraus has a problem that I don't yet have - he cannot
learn anything new. Dr. Corum's calculated VF's for coils
seem to be more accurate than Kraus's based on my EZNEC
simulations. Where Kraus gets 0.006 for the VF of a 75m
Texas Bugcatcher coil, Corum gets something closer to
the 0.016 reported by EZNEC.

P.S. I'm deliberately ignoring the ad hominem attacks in
your posting. Why can't you just state the technical
facts without waxing so extremely nasty?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Decomposition of the
verifiable NEC/EZNEC results into traveling waves or anything else is
strictly Cecil's doing, and any conclusions he reaches from it are also
his only.

Typical guru response. EZNEC validly reports the standing
wave current in standing wave antennas and traveling wave
current in traveling wave antennas. It also validly reports
the traveling wave current in loading coils when they are
loaded with their Z0 impedance in order to eliminate
reflected current. I have been telling Roy for years that
his and w8ji's standing-wave current measurements were bogus
so he cannot possibly plead ignorance. Now EZNEC agrees with
me. Poetic justice?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com