Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

On May 9, 11:49 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
Tom doesn't even have a dog in this fight as far as I know.

Tom's web page is in this dog fight. Tom has posted hundreds
of postings in the past in support of his instantaneous
current with no phase shift through a loading coil. He
even "measured" the phase shift through a large coil at
5 nS. Of course, his "measurement" was made with standing-
wave current which doesn't change phase.

Then let me put it to you this way. I don't have a dog in your fight
with him. Why don't you go tell it to him?

73, Jim AC6XG

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

On May 9, 2:54 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:

I agree that there is a logical contradiction between standing
waves and electromagnetic waves.

If there is, then there must also be contradiction between traveling
waves and destructive interference, and between two dissonant notes
and the beat they create. They are all simply the result of
superposition. Two things happening at the same time in the same place
with one result. But nothing more.

Take two sound waves of identical frequency and superpose them. The
result is a single waveform. Now decrease the frequency of one just a
bit. They still superpose to create a single waveform but now the net
amplitude varies with time according to the difference in frequency.
Decrease the frequency even more. We still have a single waveform,
and the beat frequency may now be too rapid to easily discern, but now
we can begin to discern two distinct pitches. Look at it on a
spectrum analyzer and we can see each of the two frequencies
individually. Yet all we see on the oscilloscope is one waveform.

Is that the contradiction?

73, Jim AC6XG

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

On May 9, 4:28 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
The entire point of Richard's citation is that VF is a function of pitch
to circumference ratio. It explains the very thing that you need to
support your argument about phase delay across a coil.

Does "circumference" mean the circumference of the coil or
is it the actual wire length once around the helix?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

2*Pi*radius

ac6xg

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

On May 9, 3:27 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:

"I don`t quite grasp the purpose of your bolt comparison, Richard."

My point was that the signal is guided by the wire on the coil and isn`t
instantly transported by induction from one end of the coil to the
other. How long it takes the signal to travel the length of the coil
depends on the length of wire in the coil as well as the velocity factor
of the wave on the wire in the coil. If it were not so, Terman`s
explanation of the traveling wave tube (TWT) would not be valid. But,
GTE Lenkurt gives a similar explanation in its "Demodulator" of the TWT.
They manufactured TWT amplifiers and surely knew how they worked.

A coil is a coil whether it is used in a traveling wave tube or used to
load an antenna. The velocity factors are surely a function of coil
dimensions as illustrated by the research results given by Kraus in
Fig.7-19 in the 1950 edition of "Antennas". The variation surprises me.
There is probably more research which explains such variations.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Ok. But what I was asking is what does any of that have to do with a
bolt?

73, Jim AC6XG

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

On 9 May 2007 23:29:28 -0700, Jim Kelley wrote:

On May 9, 3:27 pm, (Richard Harrison) wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:

"I don`t quite grasp the purpose of your bolt comparison, Richard."

My point was that the signal is guided by the wire on the coil and isn`t
instantly transported by induction from one end of the coil to the
other. How long it takes the signal to travel the length of the coil
depends on the length of wire in the coil as well as the velocity factor
of the wave on the wire in the coil. If it were not so, Terman`s
explanation of the traveling wave tube (TWT) would not be valid. But,
GTE Lenkurt gives a similar explanation in its "Demodulator" of the TWT.
They manufactured TWT amplifiers and surely knew how they worked.

A coil is a coil whether it is used in a traveling wave tube or used to
load an antenna. The velocity factors are surely a function of coil
dimensions as illustrated by the research results given by Kraus in
Fig.7-19 in the 1950 edition of "Antennas". The variation surprises me.
There is probably more research which explains such variations.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Ok. But what I was asking is what does any of that have to do with a
bolt?

The travel of one turn of a point at the radius (helical distance) in
relation to the travel of the same point in the depth (the linear
displacement after 360 degrees of the turn) is related to pitch. A
simple mechanical relationship. This is the bolt.

The signal flowing in the helix modulates a beam traveling within the
axis of the helix to impose its frequency upon it
(amplification/oscillation) through the pitch. This is the TWT.

The helical distance is supposed to express the linear completion of
the truncated 90 degrees of a quarterwave radiator. This is for the
loading coil.

There is no obvious correlation between the mechanical description,
the harmonic relation of the TWT and the degree relation of the
loading coil beyond the simple, visual metaphor which doesn't really
add any quid-pro-quo.

What is missing for the TWT is the necessary correlation of the beam
drift velocity which is wholly lacking from the bolt metaphor.

To say that the coil replaces the missing degrees of the truncated
quarterwave has likewise been so sloppily handled in the past, that
60-70% error brushed aside to prove equality provokes "so what?"

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

"Jim Kelley" wrote in message
ps.com...
On May 9, 2:54 pm, Cecil Moore wrote:

I agree that there is a logical contradiction between standing
waves and electromagnetic waves.

If there is, then there must also be contradiction between traveling
waves and destructive interference, and between two dissonant notes
and the beat they create. They are all simply the result of
superposition. Two things happening at the same time in the same place
with one result. But nothing more.

Take two sound waves of identical frequency and superpose them. The
result is a single waveform. Now decrease the frequency of one just a
bit. They still superpose to create a single waveform but now the net
amplitude varies with time according to the difference in frequency.
Decrease the frequency even more. We still have a single waveform,
and the beat frequency may now be too rapid to easily discern, but now
we can begin to discern two distinct pitches. Look at it on a
spectrum analyzer and we can see each of the two frequencies
individually. Yet all we see on the oscilloscope is one waveform.

Is that the contradiction?

73, Jim AC6XG


No, Its an illusion. The same thing happens when you view an AM signal. On
an oscilloscope the pattern you see may give you the impression that the
carrier is changing in amplitude with the modulation. Perhaps standing waves
are this same type of illusion.

Jimmie

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
Then let me put it to you this way. I don't have a dog in your fight
with him. Why don't you go tell it to him?

I already did.

But let's extend your logic to John Kraus. He doesn't
have a dog in this fight either. Why is it OK to quote
Kraus and not OK to quote w8ji?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote:
I agree that there is a logical contradiction between standing
waves and electromagnetic waves.

Is that the contradiction?

You obviously misunderstood what I was trying to say
so let me expand my statement:

Since contradictions do not exist in reality, any
apparent contradiction between standing EM waves and
traveling EM waves has to exist only in the human mind.
There is no contradiction in the real world. The photons
in a standing wave are moving at the speed of light,
c*VF, not standing still in the standing wave. Believing
that the component traveling waves cease to exist is
the contradiction and cannot occur in reality.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
2*Pi*radius

Sorry, I'm a little handicapped since I have never seen
"Figure 7-19" and it has been removed from the web site.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Phase Shift through a 75m Texas Bugcatcher Coil
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
...
If that were true, Intel could speed up its computer
buses by adding a 75m Texas Bugcatcher coil to each
data/control line, i.e. it is a ridiculous assertion.
Cecil:

This whole discussion has been interesting. I have loved the debate and analysis ... krist, you guys keep this up and I just may end up finding ham radio fun again!

Let's just remember to all shake hands when this is done :-)

Warmest regards,
JS