Water burns!
 

John Smith I wrote:
For example, a "gravity engine" could be possible if we only knew of a
way to "shield" things from gravity with little cost in energy.

Don't forget zero point energy. http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html.

More than half a century ago, I remember the conservation
of energy principle being modified to: "Energy cannot be
created or destroyed *by ordinary chemical means*" - right
after WWII. It took some time for the meaning of e = mc^2
to soak in. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Water burns!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:

...
Don't forget zero point energy. http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html.

More than half a century ago, I remember the conservation
of energy principle being modified to: "Energy cannot be
created or destroyed *by ordinary chemical means*" - right
after WWII. It took some time for the meaning of e = mc^2
to soak in. :-)

Cecil:

You need another lifetime man! If you don't petition God yourself for
such, I will by proxy!

Exactly correct, and that is NOT the only time "laws" have been
rewritten, nor will it be the last ... one only has to realize the
quaint old phrase, "Laws were meant to be broken" to advance into the
dark and unknown ...

An open mind and willingness to look "under-the-rocks" which others
avoid is all that is necessary for advancement and discovery. The only
problem is, there are a H*LL of a lot of rocks with nothing under em'!

Keep on truckin'!

Warmest regards,
JS

Water burns!
 

John Smith I wrote:
You need another lifetime man!

Reincarnation?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

Water burns!
 

On 7 Jun, 22:01, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:
On 31 May 2007 08:58:09 -0700, art wrote:



I cringe at the idea of the news media filtering out the garbage!
It is for the viewer to determine what is garbage and what is not.

Unfortunately very few viewers have either the education or experience
to make that determination.

My O my. I know that America is a big Country but I never realised
that Communist ideals were lying secretly under some rocks waiting
for an opportunity to broadcast its ideals. When does America
start burning all books and pick up the refrain of the resident
couch experts? Does this reflect the ideals of the antenna experts
on this newsgroup? Obviously they are not having success when
it comes to suppression with respect to antennas
Art

Water burns!
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Smith I wrote:
You need another lifetime man!

Reincarnation?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

Well, it is found in the "Dead Sea Scrolls", however, I believe an
ancient convention of bishops decided that reincarnation was too
complicated for the commoners and removed the/those book(s) from the
bible. (this was mentioned to me by an devote acquaintance, I can't
claim it to be valid)

Regards,
JS

Water burns!
 

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

...
Unfortunately very few viewers have either the education or experience
to make that determination. It's like computer literacy. Now days
...

Unfortunately, very few people have the where-with-all to determine what
others can or cannot determine and are unjustified it attempting to do
so ...

Yanno, you kinda look like one of 'em ... ahhh, perhaps it is just the
lighting ...

JS

Water burns!
 

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 06:13:22 -0700, John Smith I
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

...
I doubt any one is arguing that Hydrogen is generated, the problem is
it is a very inefficient process both from how much hydrogen is
generated compared to how much RF it takes to generate that Hydrogen.
...

The most efficient solar cells are about 20% efficient, efficiency is in
the eye of the beholder. With an, almost, never ending supply of
sunlight--they suddenly begin to make sense ... a two fold increase in
efficiency would change everything, yet still be only 40% efficient.

The replacement of batteries with storage tanks is an economic advantage
of hydrogen over electric ... and an IMPORTANT one, well, until better
and more efficient batteries come along.

...
... Using microwaves they come off mixed
which is not a good thing. Looks spectacular but not very useful.

They come off in exactly the necessary ratio to burn at 100% efficiency.

Unfortunately they are mixed in that ratio and there is no safe way to
store much comprised of that ratio. They need to be separated to be
stored safely. Hydrogen can be stored in a metal sponge (Metal
Hydride) which is quite efficient. Expensive, but efficient.

Now, a way make lemonade from that "lemon" is only necessary ...

...
Trucking H2 is expensive and piping it much of any distance as a
liquid is out of the question.

Yeah, I'd pipe it as a gas ... allowing its' own pressure to "pump" it.

The problem with piping it as a gas is transferring sufficient volume
and then it'd have to be liquefied at the receiving end. Another
problem is keeping it liquid. You really can't carry a lot as a gas
under pressure and it takes a lot to develop much energy/power as the
stuff is so low in BTU content.


Taken out of context it is true that a Hydrogen spill dissipates much
more quickly that a gasoline spill, BUT while it is dissipating it is
far more explosive. OTOH a given volume of H2 has far less energy/BTU
than gas. Put in perspetive both dynamite and TNT also have less
energy per unit volume than does gas. The problem is the speed of the
combustion front. In the end it's not quite true that a liquid H2
spill is safer than a gas spill.

Depending on the speed of release/"moment of ignition", the bulk of the
hydrogen burn/explosion is going to be well above your head ... hydrogen

I've been around a couple of H2/air explosions. H2 by itself does rise
rapidly, but it is so active physically it mixes with the air and the
rise is not nearly as fast although it does dissipate relatively
quick. OTOH you have to get rid of almost all of it before it is no
longer dangerous from an explosive point. The lower explosive limit
(LEL) is only 4% while the Upper Explosive Limit (UEL) is 96% meaning
if it's present it's probably within the explosive range.

Another problem with H2 is it doesn't take much flow to create a
substantial electrostatic charge resulting in a spark and ignition. In
both cases I'm familiar that was the cause of the explosion. In the
one case a worker was standing within a couple of feet of the large
container which was at low pressure. Just a couple inches of water
pressure above atmosphere. He was looking at it when it blew. You
could see the imprint of his goggles and shape of his face in the
Aluminum. He did survive, but it was a couple of days before he could
hear again. Pretty amazing as it basically blew him through the
equivalent of a wall. In the other case it blew a worker through the
"blow out panels" in a wall plus about 30 to 50 feet. He was back to
work the next day.

In both cases there was enough air movement that the bulk of the force
was within a few feet of the floor.

snip

Water burns!
 

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

[a lot of stuff]

Here is a link on the safety and desirability of hydrogen vs. gasoline:

http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/facts/einsafety.pdf

Hydrogen can be separated from oxygen with a simple plastic membrane,
the pores in this membrane are engineered to a size which will allow
hydrogen atoms to pass freely while blocking the oxygen atoms. The
oxygen "byproduct" is a sale-able one.

The only REAL concern is efficiency ... and as I have pointed out, an
over-unity or even a unity condition is not necessary for this method
(if it stands up to close scrutiny) to be an economically feasible
venture ...

Hydrogen is probably here to stay, it is only how we will produce it
that is in question. Pollution alone is enough to make us take its'
path. While "evil" smoking is in decline and been so for some time,
lung cancer continues to rise at an alarming rate. A search of the web
will convince you that all respiratory diseases are on the rise. While
they have done wonderful things to make exhaust odorless and invisible,
we are still breathing great quantities of it 24 hours a day, 7 days a
week, 4 weeks a month, 12 months a year, for our whole lives, with china
coming on line we are about to see real pollution rolling in on our west
coast, we then add our pollution to it and by the time it hits the east
coast--I pity the poor air breathers there ...

Monday, as you cruise to work, contemplate the river of vehicle exhaust
you are submerged in, the tens of
thousands/hundreds-of-thousands/millions/tens-of-millions/etc. of cubic
feet of toxic exhaust which is being spewed out before your path, for
miles and miles ahead ... you will begin to grasp the need and
importance of hydrogen ...

JS

Water burns!
 

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 06:13:22 -0700, John Smith I
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

...
I doubt any one is arguing that Hydrogen is generated, the problem is
it is a very inefficient process both from how much hydrogen is
generated compared to how much RF it takes to generate that Hydrogen.
...

The most efficient solar cells are about 20% efficient, efficiency is in
the eye of the beholder. With an, almost, never ending supply of
sunlight--they suddenly begin to make sense ... a two fold increase in
efficiency would change everything, yet still be only 40% efficient.

The replacement of batteries with storage tanks is an economic advantage
of hydrogen over electric ... and an IMPORTANT one, well, until better
and more efficient batteries come along.

...
... Using microwaves they come off mixed
which is not a good thing. Looks spectacular but not very useful.

They come off in exactly the necessary ratio to burn at 100% efficiency.

Unfortunately they are mixed in that ratio and there is no safe way to
store much comprised of that ratio. They need to be separated to be
stored safely. Hydrogen can be stored in a metal sponge (Metal
Hydride) which is quite efficient. Expensive, but efficient.

Now, a way make lemonade from that "lemon" is only necessary ...

...
Trucking H2 is expensive and piping it much of any distance as a
liquid is out of the question.

Yeah, I'd pipe it as a gas ... allowing its' own pressure to "pump" it.

The problem with piping it as a gas is transferring sufficient volume
and then it'd have to be liquefied at the receiving end. Another
problem is keeping it liquid. You really can't carry a lot as a gas
under pressure and it takes a lot to develop much energy/power as the
stuff is so low in BTU content.


Taken out of context it is true that a Hydrogen spill dissipates much
more quickly that a gasoline spill, BUT while it is dissipating it is
far more explosive. OTOH a given volume of H2 has far less energy/BTU
than gas. Put in perspetive both dynamite and TNT also have less
energy per unit volume than does gas. The problem is the speed of the
combustion front. In the end it's not quite true that a liquid H2
spill is safer than a gas spill.

Depending on the speed of release/"moment of ignition", the bulk of the
hydrogen burn/explosion is going to be well above your head ... hydrogen

I've been around a couple of H2/air explosions. H2 by itself does rise
rapidly, but it is so active physically it mixes with the air and the
rise is not nearly as fast although it does dissipate relatively
quick. OTOH you have to get rid of almost all of it before it is no
longer dangerous from an explosive point. The lower explosive limit
(LEL) is only 4% while the Upper Explosive Limit (UEL) is 96% meaning
if it's present it's probably within the explosive range.

Another problem with H2 is it doesn't take much flow to create a
substantial electrostatic charge resulting in a spark and ignition. In
both cases I'm familiar that was the cause of the explosion. In the
one case a worker was standing within a couple of feet of the large
container which was at low pressure. Just a couple inches of water
pressure above atmosphere. He was looking at it when it blew. You
could see the imprint of his goggles and shape of his face in the
Aluminum. He did survive, but it was a couple of days before he could
hear again. Pretty amazing as it basically blew him through the
equivalent of a wall. In the other case it blew a worker through the
"blow out panels" in a wall plus about 30 to 50 feet. He was back to
work the next day.

In both cases there was enough air movement that the bulk of the force
was within a few feet of the floor.

snip


When I was a teenager a truck caarying H2 came into town and the driver
decided to eat at a local restaraunt. Unknown to him his tank had a leak. I
saw the heat disortion above the flame and called the fire department. When
they got there they started chewing my butt because it want on fire, then
one of the firemen walked into the flame.

Jimmie

Water burns!
 

Jimmie D wrote:

[stuff removed]
When I was a teenager a truck caarying H2 came into town and the driver
decided to eat at a local restaraunt. Unknown to him his tank had a leak. I
saw the heat disortion above the flame and called the fire department. When
they got there they started chewing my butt because it want on fire, then
one of the firemen walked into the flame.

Jimmie



Hmmm, aliens having a hot-dog roast, or just stupid firemen, possibly an
urban myth?

JS