art wrote:

Look at Edisons' invention, the light bulb.

It makes a much better heater than a light source (only a few percent of
the energy consumed is given off as usable light!)

Besides, perhaps next they will find out that the rf power can be
reduced a hundrend-fold if the proper catalyst is used. Perhaps
attacking the hydrogen/oxygen bond on multi-levels will finally be found
to be feasible ...

I have never seen in any book ANY speculation that rf could break
hydrogen/oxygen bonds--only that microwaves could boil water! That in
itself seems a major break through that the brain dead have glossed over
in their claim of "it won't work!" Besides all that, it appears to me
that the bond is being broken well below the boiling point of the salt
water--seems like sodium chloride is already working as some sort of
catalyst--let's all hope a magnitudes better catalyst is found!

JS

"John Smith I" wrote in message
...
art wrote:

Look at Edisons' invention, the light bulb.

It makes a much better heater than a light source (only a few percent of
the energy consumed is given off as usable light!)

Besides, perhaps next they will find out that the rf power can be
reduced a hundrend-fold if the proper catalyst is used. Perhaps
attacking the hydrogen/oxygen bond on multi-levels will finally be found
to be feasible ...

I have never seen in any book ANY speculation that rf could break
hydrogen/oxygen bonds--only that microwaves could boil water! That in
itself seems a major break through that the brain dead have glossed over
in their claim of "it won't work!" Besides all that, it appears to me
that the bond is being broken well below the boiling point of the salt
water--seems like sodium chloride is already working as some sort of
catalyst--let's all hope a magnitudes better catalyst is found!

JS

John

Commercial microwave ovens have always worked on the principle of heating
water by being tuned to the vibrational frequency of water molecules. It
seems obvious that if sufficiently focused, the microwave energy would cause
spontaneous decomposition of the water molecules into their constituent
oxygen and hydrogen molecules. The addition of sodium chloride, or any salt,
to the water can act as a catalyst by causing energy to become more tightly
focused or by 'tuning' the molecules to become more susceptable to the
microwave frequency(ies) involved. Sugared drinks heat more quickly than
plain water in a microwave oven. While this may reduce the energy input
requirements, there is no possibility of recovering a greater amount of
energy than was input to initiate the reaction. This sounds like another
version of the cold fusion debate, albeit not so cold.

There is no magic here. A kilowatt of energy focused into an area of less
than a tenth of a cubic millimetre will instantaneously disassociate
virtually any substance known to science.

A commercial fusion reactor is currently being built in France. It will cost
billions of dollars to complete, but when it becomes operational there will
be a surplus of energy generated. That is our future and the future of
energy production. A jar full of salty water will never power the average
home or car unless it is surrounding several pounds of Plutonium. :-)

Mike G0ULI

Mike Kaliski wrote:
A jar full of salty water will never power the average
home or car unless it is surrounding several pounds of Plutonium. :-)

Can you prove that "never" assertion? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Mike Kaliski wrote:


Commercial microwave ovens have always worked on the principle of heating
water by being tuned to the vibrational frequency of water molecules.


Hmmm. The first resonant peak of the
water molecule is around 1THz, while at
the microwave operating frequency of
2.45GHz there are no resonances of the
water molecule.

The 2.45GHz frequency has no particular
connection to the resonant frequencies
of candidate food molecules.

Chuck

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"Chuck" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:


Commercial microwave ovens have always worked on the principle of
heating
water by being tuned to the vibrational frequency of water molecules.


Hmmm. The first resonant peak of the
water molecule is around 1THz, while at
the microwave operating frequency of
2.45GHz there are no resonances of the
water molecule.

The 2.45GHz frequency has no particular
connection to the resonant frequencies
of candidate food molecules.

Chuck

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Chuck

That would be why returns on 3 Cm marine radar are wiped out in heavy rain
then. I can vouch for the fact that heavy rain and spray can result in 100%
obscuration of ship radar targets.

Aircraft also use radar to detect storms. The severity of the weather ahead
is determined by analysis of the probable size of the water droplets in the
cloud, which affects the level of the radar return.

While water molecules may have an inherent resonance at 1 THz, it is
generally accepted by the scientific community that microwave ovens work by
exciting water molecules, amongst others, in food. I can't recall ever
cooking anything in a microwave that wasn't wet or at least damp. Well I
have tested some bits of plastic for suitability for use at RF, but that
wasn't for eating - and the wife was out!!!

I am happy to accept that there is no direct correlation between the
resonant frequency of a water molecule at 1 THz and a microwave oven
magnetron operating in the Ghz range. However, microwave ovens will heat
even distilled water quite effectively and heating is defined as an increase
in vibrational energy of molecules. So however the process actually works,
some principle of resonance must exist to allow the excitation of the water
molecules to occur. Either that, or microwave ovens actually work by heating
the food with infra red radiation derived using waste heat from the
magnetron and we have all been fooled. :-)

Mike G0ULI

Mike Kaliski wrote:


That would be why returns on 3 Cm marine radar are wiped out in heavy rain
then. I can vouch for the fact that heavy rain and spray can result in 100%
obscuration of ship radar targets.

Aircraft also use radar to detect storms. The severity of the weather ahead
is determined by analysis of the probable size of the water droplets in the
cloud, which affects the level of the radar return.

While water molecules may have an inherent resonance at 1 THz, it is
generally accepted by the scientific community that microwave ovens work by
exciting water molecules, amongst others, in food. I can't recall ever
cooking anything in a microwave that wasn't wet or at least damp. Well I
have tested some bits of plastic for suitability for use at RF, but that
wasn't for eating - and the wife was out!!!

I am happy to accept that there is no direct correlation between the
resonant frequency of a water molecule at 1 THz and a microwave oven
magnetron operating in the Ghz range. However, microwave ovens will heat
even distilled water quite effectively and heating is defined as an increase
in vibrational energy of molecules. So however the process actually works,
some principle of resonance must exist to allow the excitation of the water
molecules to occur. Either that, or microwave ovens actually work by heating
the food with infra red radiation derived using waste heat from the
magnetron and we have all been fooled. :-)



Increased molecular motion certainly
accompanies increased temperature, but
depending on the water's salt content,
the skin depth of water at microwave
oven frequencies is 0.5cm to 4.7cm. So I
guess it is an absorption phenomenon,
rather than resonance. Or, infrared
radiation from the maagnetron! ;-)

This information, BTW, comes from Ron
Schmitt's "Electromagnetics Explained".

Chuck

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"Chuck" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:


That would be why returns on 3 Cm marine radar are wiped out in heavy
rain
then. I can vouch for the fact that heavy rain and spray can result in
100%
obscuration of ship radar targets.

Aircraft also use radar to detect storms. The severity of the weather
ahead
is determined by analysis of the probable size of the water droplets in
the
cloud, which affects the level of the radar return.

While water molecules may have an inherent resonance at 1 THz, it is
generally accepted by the scientific community that microwave ovens work
by
exciting water molecules, amongst others, in food. I can't recall ever
cooking anything in a microwave that wasn't wet or at least damp. Well I
have tested some bits of plastic for suitability for use at RF, but that
wasn't for eating - and the wife was out!!!

I am happy to accept that there is no direct correlation between the
resonant frequency of a water molecule at 1 THz and a microwave oven
magnetron operating in the Ghz range. However, microwave ovens will heat
even distilled water quite effectively and heating is defined as an
increase
in vibrational energy of molecules. So however the process actually
works,
some principle of resonance must exist to allow the excitation of the
water
molecules to occur. Either that, or microwave ovens actually work by
heating
the food with infra red radiation derived using waste heat from the
magnetron and we have all been fooled. :-)



Increased molecular motion certainly
accompanies increased temperature, but
depending on the water's salt content,
the skin depth of water at microwave
oven frequencies is 0.5cm to 4.7cm. So I
guess it is an absorption phenomenon,
rather than resonance. Or, infrared
radiation from the maagnetron! ;-)

This information, BTW, comes from Ron
Schmitt's "Electromagnetics Explained".

Chuck

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Chuck

When I learned about radar it was common practice to break the waveguide and
stick your hand over the transmitter end to see if you could feel any
warmth! If your hand got hot, the magnetron was firing up okay. If you were
of a nervous disposition, then a neon bulb was a sissy substitute for a
hand.

The marine radar sets on my first ship were all Korean War vintage with a 10
Cm set with a standard range of 96 miles - well over the horizon. The
navigators claimed they could spot mountain tops at over 200 miles.

The equipment was all valves and worked for an average of 3 days before each
failure. Usually a 2 to 4 hour fault finding job each time. The most
spectacular failure occured when the 10 Cm radar continued to work
fautlessly through a severe storm before finally packing up when the sun
came out. Eventually the waveguide running up the mast to the scanner was
found to contain over 30 vertical feet of water! The scanner horn had been
holed by a piece of railing torn off the bow in the storm. The metal railing
had flown up 60 feet in the air before hitting the scanner horn and holing
it. Clearing the water and patching the scanner horn with duct tape restored
operation until we docked.

I know that the 10 Cm radar appeared not to have any water heating effects
because the water that poured out of the waveguide was freezing and the
radar had been continuously switched to transmit until shortly before
looking for the fault.

So there is definitely something significant about the 3 Cm wavelengths used
in microwave ovens and interaction with water molecules at that frequency.

Mike G0ULI

Mike Kaliski wrote:
So there is definitely something significant about the 3 Cm wavelengths used
in microwave ovens and interaction with water molecules at that frequency.

From Wikipedia:
"Cooking food with microwaves was discovered by Percy Spencer
while building magnetrons for radar sets at Raytheon. He was
working on an active radar set when he noticed a strange sensation,
and saw that a peanut candy bar he had in his pocket started to melt.
Water, fat, and other substances in the food absorb energy from
the microwaves in a process called dielectric heating. Dipole
rotation is the mechanism normally referred to as dielectric
heating, and is most widely observable in the microwave oven
where it operates most efficiently on liquid water, ..."

I never realized that rotating my dipole was contributing
to global warming. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Mike Kaliski wrote:

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
Mike Kaliski wrote:


Commercial microwave ovens have always worked on the principle of
heating
water by being tuned to the vibrational frequency of water molecules.


Hmmm. The first resonant peak of the
water molecule is around 1THz, while at
the microwave operating frequency of
2.45GHz there are no resonances of the
water molecule.

The 2.45GHz frequency has no particular
connection to the resonant frequencies
of candidate food molecules.

Chuck

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Newsgroups
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Chuck

That would be why returns on 3 Cm marine radar are wiped out in heavy rain
then. I can vouch for the fact that heavy rain and spray can result in 100%
obscuration of ship radar targets.

Aircraft also use radar to detect storms. The severity of the weather ahead
is determined by analysis of the probable size of the water droplets in the
cloud, which affects the level of the radar return.

While water molecules may have an inherent resonance at 1 THz, it is
generally accepted by the scientific community that microwave ovens work by
exciting water molecules, amongst others, in food. I can't recall ever
cooking anything in a microwave that wasn't wet or at least damp. Well I
have tested some bits of plastic for suitability for use at RF, but that
wasn't for eating - and the wife was out!!!

I am happy to accept that there is no direct correlation between the
resonant frequency of a water molecule at 1 THz and a microwave oven
magnetron operating in the Ghz range. However, microwave ovens will heat
even distilled water quite effectively and heating is defined as an increase
in vibrational energy of molecules. So however the process actually works,
some principle of resonance must exist to allow the excitation of the water
molecules to occur. Either that, or microwave ovens actually work by heating
the food with infra red radiation derived using waste heat from the
magnetron and we have all been fooled. :-)

Mike G0ULI

You can look at the stuff in a microwave as a resistive load.

What happens to a resistive load when you feed it RF?

Or even DC, but putting in all the little DC probes so the burrito heats
evenly is a pain in the butt.



--
Jim Pennino

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Mike Kaliski wrote:

...

It would be interesting to know what freq was being used in the video ...

If it were microwave, I wouldn't think that guy would be keeping his
vision too much longer. A KW (heck, even a hundred watts or less over
time!) turned into the room would be working on his cataracts, BIG TIME!

JS