AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
 

On 7/4/07 8:42 PM, in article , "Ron
Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 10:16 AM, in article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 7:52 AM, in article ,
"Ron
Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

snip


cos(a) * cos(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a+b] + cos[a-b])

Basically: multiplying two sine waves is
the same as adding the (half amplitude)
sum and difference frequencies.

No, they aren't the same at all, they only appear to be the same before
they are examined. The two sidebands will not have the correct phase
relationship.

What do you mean? What is the "correct"
relationship?


One could, temporarily, mistake the added combination for a full carrier
with independent sidebands, however.




(For sines it is
sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a-b]-cos[a+b])
= 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] - sin[a+b+90degrees])
= 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] + sin[a+b-90degrees])
)

--
rb





When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is modulated

The questions I posed were not about AM. The
subject could have been viewed as DSB but that
wasn't the specific intent either.

You should take some time to more carefully frame your questions.

Do you understand that a DSB signal *is* AM?

Post your intention; it might help.


onto a carrier via a non-linear process), at an envelope detector the two
sidebands will be additive. But if you independe ntly place a carrier at
frequency ( c ), another carrier at ( c-1 khz) and another carrier at (c+
1
kHz), the composite can look like an AM signal, but it is not, and only by
the most extreme luck will the sidebands be additive at the detector.
They
would probably cycle between additive and subtractive since they have no
real relationship and were not the result of amplitude modulation.

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
 

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Sorry, John - while the ear's amplitude response IS nonlinear, it
does not act as a mixer. "Mixing" (multiplication) occurs when
a given nonlinear element (in electronics, a diode or transistor, for
example) is presented with two signals of different frequencies.
But the human ear doesn't work in that manner - there is no single
nonlinear element which is receiving more than one signal.

Sure there is - the cochlea. (well, the whole middle ear/inner ear
system.)

Nope - the point had to do with the inner workings of the cochlea.
You can't consider it as a single element, as the inner workings
consists of what are essentially thousands of very narrowband
individual sensors. There is no *single* nonlinear element in which
mixing of, say, the hypothetical 300 Hz and 400 Hz tones would
take place. John responded that the eardrum (typmanic membrane)
would act as such an element, but I would suggest that any mixing
which might in theory go on here is not a signifcant factor in how we
perceive such tones. The evidence for this is obvious - if presented
with, say, a pure 440 Hz "A" from a tuning fork, and the note from the
slightly flat instrument we're trying to tune (let's say 438 Hz), we DO
hear the 2 Hz "beat" that results from the interference (in the air)
between these two sounds. What we do NOT hear to any significant
degree is the 878 Hz sum that would be expected if there were much
contribution from a multiplicative ("mixing") process.

Bob M.

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
 

Jim Kelley wrote:
On Jul 5, 9:38 pm, John Fields wrote:

Sure enough, I heard the beat even though it came from different
sources, but I couldn't quite get it down to DC even with the
scope's trace at 0V.

Of course you heard beats. What you didn't hear is the sum of the
frequencies. I've had the same setup on my bench for several months.
It's also one of the experiments the students do in the first year
physics labs. Someone had made the claim a while back that what we
hear is the 'average' of the two frequencies. Didn't make any sense
so I did the experiment. The results are as I have explained.

We hear the average of two frequencies if both frequencies
are indistinguishably close, say with a difference of some few
hertz. For example, the combination of a 220 Hz signal and
a 224 Hz signal with the same amplitude will be perceived as
a 4 Hz beat of a 222 Hz tone.

gr, Hein

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulationfrequencyonanastronomically-lowcarrier frequency
 

Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:

What is the difference between AM and DSB?

The two actually describe different properties, so a signal can be be
AM, DSB, neither, or both.

And here we run into some trouble between technical correctness and
common usage.

DSB stands for Double SideBand. Although I suppose an FM signal could be
called DSB because it has two *sets* of sidebands, and a narrowband FM
signal has only one significant pair like an AM signal, in my experience
the term DSB virtually always refers to a signal generated by amplitude
modulation.

AM is Amplitude Modulation. Straightforward amplitude modulation such as
done for AM broadcasting produces a carrier and two sidebands, or DSB
with carrier. Either the carrier or one sideband, or both, can be
suppressed. If you suppress the carrier (or don't generate it in the
first place), you get DSB with suppressed carrier, or DSB-SC. If you
suppress one sideband, you get SSB. Usually, but not always, the carrier
is also suppressed along with the one sideband, resulting in SSB-SC.
NTSC television transmission is VSB -- AM with a carrier and "vestigial"
or partially suppressed sideband and a full second sideband. Partial
suppression of the carrier is also done for some broadcast purposes.

So a commercial AM broadcast station broadcasts a signal that's both AM
and DSB. A typical amateur or military SSB transmission is AM but not
DSB. A QPSK signal is neither. And, as I mentioned, some signals like FM
could be considered DSB but not AM (although this isn't common usage).

In common amateur parlance, however,

"AM" usually means AM with two sidebands and carrier.
"DSB" usually means AM with two sidebands and suppressed carrier
"SSB" usually means AM with a single sideband and suppressed carrier

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
 

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...

snip


After you get done talking about modulation and sidebands,
somebody
might want to take a stab at explaining why, if you tune a
receiver
to
the second harmonic (or any other harmonic) of a modulated
carrier
(AM
or FM; makes no difference), the audio comes out sounding exactly
as
it
does if you tune to the fundamental? That is, while the second
harmonic
of the carrier is twice the frequency of the fundamental, the
sidebands
of the second harmonic are *not* located at twice the frequencies
of
the
sidebands of the fundamental, but rather precisely as far from
the
second harmonic of the carrier as they are from the fundamental.

Isaac

Whoa. I thought you were smoking something but
my curiosity is piqued.
I tried shortwave stations and heard no harmonics.
But that could be blamed on propagation.
There is an AM station here at 1.21 MHz that is s9+20dB.
Tuned to 2.42 MHz. Nothing. Generally the lowest
harmonics should be strongest. Then I remembered
that many types of non-linearity favor odd harmonics.
Tuned to 3.63 MHz. Holy harmonics, batman.
There it was and the modulation was not multiplied!
Voices sounded normal pitch. When music was
played the pitch was the same on the original and
the harmonic.

One clue is that the effect comes and goes rather
abruptly. It seems to switch in and out rather
than fade in an out. Maybe the coming and going
is from switching the audio material source?

This is strange. If a signal is multiplied then the sidebands
should be multiplied too.
Maybe the carrier generator is generating a
harmonic and the harmonic is also being modulated
with the normal audio in the modulator.
But then that signal would have to make it through
the power amp and the antenna. Possible, but
why would it come and go?
Strange.

Hint: Modulation is a "rate effect".

Isaac

Please elaborate. I am so eager to hear the
explanation.

The sidebands only show up because there is a rate of change of the
carrier -- amplitude or frequency/phase, depending; they aren't
separate, stand-alone signals. Since the rate of change of the
amplitude
of the second harmonic is identical to that of the fundamental, the
sidebands show up the same distance away, not twice as distant.

Isaac

That doesn't explain why the effect would come and go.

I don't understand what effect you're referring to here.

When I was tuned to the 3rd harmonic sometimes
I would hear it and sometimes not.
It would come and go rather abruptly. It didn't seem
to be gradual fading.


But once again you have surprised me.
Your explanation of the non-multiplied sidebands,
while qualitative and incomplete, is sound.

I'm a physicist/engineer, and have been for a long time. I have always

The you understand Fourier transforms and convolution.

maintained that if the only way one can understand physical phenomena is
by solving the differential equations that describe them, then one does
not understand the phenomena at all. If you can express a thing in
words, such that a person with little mathematical ability can
understand what's going on, *then* you have a good grasp of it.

I too am a fan of the intuitive approach.
But I find that theory is often irreplacable.


It looks to me that the tripple frequency sidebands
are there but the basic sidebands dominate.
Especially at lower modulation indexes.

I don't understand what you are saying here either. And in my
experience, the term "modulation index" is more likely to show up in a
discussion of FM or PM than AM; are you using it interchangeably with
"modulation percentage"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplitu...dulation_index



Isaac

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulationfrequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
 

In article ,
Don Bowey wrote:

On 7/6/07 12:15 PM, in article
, "isw"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Bowey wrote:

On 7/6/07 9:36 AM, in article
, "isw"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Bowey wrote:

On 7/5/07 10:27 PM, in article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/5/07 12:00 AM, in article
,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 8:42 PM, in article
,
"Ron
Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 10:16 AM, in article
,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 7:52 AM, in article
,
"Ron
Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

snip


cos(a) * cos(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a+b] + cos[a-b])

Basically: multiplying two sine waves is
the same as adding the (half amplitude)
sum and difference frequencies.

No, they aren't the same at all, they only appear to be the
same
before
they are examined. The two sidebands will not have the correct
phase
relationship.

What do you mean? What is the "correct"
relationship?


One could, temporarily, mistake the added combination for a full
carrier
with independent sidebands, however.




(For sines it is
sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a-b]-cos[a+b])
= 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] -
sin[a+b+90degrees])
= 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] +
sin[a+b-90degrees])
)

--
rb





When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is
modulated

The questions I posed were not about AM. The
subject could have been viewed as DSB but that
wasn't the specific intent either.

What was the subject of your question?

Copying from my original post:

Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude
is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave.
What would it look like on an oscilloscope?
What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer?

Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added
to a 0.9 MHz sine wave.
What would that look like on an oscilloscope?
What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer?




So the first (1) is an AM question and the second (2) is a non-AM
question......

What is the difference between AM and DSB?




AM is a process. DSB (double sideband), with carrier, is it's most
simple
result. DSB without carrier (suppressed carrier dsb) requires using, at
least, a balanced mixer as the AM multiplier.

And requires, for proper reception, that a carrier be recreated at the
receiver which has not only the amplitude of the original,

There is no need at all to match the carrier amplitude of the original
signal. You can use an excessively high carrier injection amplitude with
no
detrimental affect, but if the injected carrier is too little, the
demodulated signal will be over modulated and sound distorted.

but also its exact phase.

Exact, not required. The closer the better, however.

Well, OK, the phase must at least bear a constant relationship to the
one that created the signal. If you inject a carrier that has a
quadrature relationship to the one that created the DSB signal, the
output will be PM (phase modulation). In between zero and 90 degrees,
the output is a combination of the two. If the injected carrier is not
at precisely the proper frequency, the phase will roll around and the
output will be unintelligible.

Not unintelligible.... Donald Duckish.

I think you are confusing *single* sideband, for which that is correct,
and *double* sideband (which we were discussing), for which it is not
true.

On a more practical side, however, most receiver filters for ssb will
essentially remove one sideband if there are two, and can attenuate a
carrier so the local product detector can do it's job resulting in improved
receiving conditions. But this is more advanced than the Ops questions.

Doing it that way will work, but it's not "fair", because you are not
actually demodulating a DSB signal (which was the subject of the
discussion).

Isaac

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulationfrequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
 

In article ,
Roy Lewallen wrote:

Ron Baker, Pluralitas! wrote:

What is the difference between AM and DSB?

The two actually describe different properties, so a signal can be be
AM, DSB, neither, or both.

And here we run into some trouble between technical correctness and
common usage.

DSB stands for Double SideBand. Although I suppose an FM signal could be
called DSB because it has two *sets* of sidebands

Um, actually, it has a lot more than that. A carrier FM modulated by a
single sine wave has an infinite number of sidebands. If the modulating
signal is more complex, then things get really complicated.

Isaac

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
 

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"John Fields" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:00:45 -0700, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"

snip


When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is
modulated

The questions I posed were not about AM. The
subject could have been viewed as DSB but that
wasn't the specific intent either.

What was the subject of your question?

Copying from my original post:

Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude
is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave.
What would it look like on an oscilloscope?
What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer?

Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added
to a 0.9 MHz sine wave.
What would that look like on an oscilloscope?
What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer?

---
The first example is amplitude modulation precisely _because_ of the

Is there multiplication in DSB? (double sideband)

Yes, and in fact, that multiplication referred to above creates a
DSB-suppressed-carrier signal. To get "real" AM, you need to add back
the carrier *at the proper phase*.

So does the multiplication in the first example really make
it amplitude modulation?


FWIW, if you do the multiplication and then add back a carrier which is
in quadrature (90 degrees) to the one you started with, what you get is
phase modulation, a "close relative" of FM, and indistinguishable from
it for the most part.

A true DSB-suppressed carrier signal is rather difficult to receive
precisely because of the absolute phase requirement; tuning a receiver
to the right frequency isn't sufficient -- the phase has to match, too,
and that's really difficult without some sort of reference.

A SSB-suppressed carrier signal is a lot simpler to detect because an
error in the frequency of the regenerated carrier merely produces a
similar error in the frequency of the detected audio (the well-known
"Donald Duck" effect).

Isaac

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
 

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

"isw" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

snip


While it might not be obvious, the two cases I
described are basically identical. And this
situation occurs in real life, i.e. in radio signals,
oceanography, and guitar tuning.

The beat you hear during guitar tuning is not modulation; there
is
no
non-linear process involved (i.e. no multiplication).

Isaac

In short, the human auditory system is not linear.
It has a finite resolution bandwidth. It can't resolve
two tones separted by a few Hertz as two separate tones.
(But if they are separted by 100 Hz they can easily
be separated without hearing a beat.)

Two tones 100 Hz apart may or may not be perceived separately;
depends
on a lot of other factors. MP3 encoding, for example, depends on the
ear's (very predictable) inability to discern tones "nearby" to
other,
louder ones.

I'll remember that the next time I'm tuning
an MP3 guitar.


The same affect can be seen on a spectrum analyzer.
Give it two frequencies separated by 1 Hz. Set the
resolution bandwidth to 10 Hz. You'll see the peak
rise and fall at 1 Hz.

Yup. And the spectrum analyzer is (hopefully) a very linear system,
producing no intermodulation of its own.

Isaac

What does a spectrum analyzer use to arive at
amplitude values? An envelope detector?
Is that linear?

I'm sure there's more than one way to do it, but I feel certain that
any

Which of them is linear?

A well-designed filter running into a bolometer would be. You can make
the filter narrow enough to respond to only one frequency component at

Any real spectrum analyzer has a lower limit
to its resolution bandwidth, does it not?
The resolution bandwidth of the human ear is non-zero
and not really adjustable, is it not?

the time, and a bolometer just turns the signal power into heat; nothing
nonlinear there...

Really?
You said you are a physicist/engineer.
What does "linear" mean?

AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHzmodulationfrequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
 

On 7/6/07 8:21 PM, in article
, "isw"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Bowey wrote:

On 7/6/07 12:15 PM, in article
, "isw"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Bowey wrote:

On 7/6/07 9:36 AM, in article
, "isw"
wrote:

In article ,
Don Bowey wrote:

On 7/5/07 10:27 PM, in article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/5/07 12:00 AM, in article
,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 8:42 PM, in article
,
"Ron
Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 10:16 AM, in article
,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:


"Don Bowey" wrote in message
...
On 7/4/07 7:52 AM, in article
,
"Ron
Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote:

snip


cos(a) * cos(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a+b] + cos[a-b])

Basically: multiplying two sine waves is
the same as adding the (half amplitude)
sum and difference frequencies.

No, they aren't the same at all, they only appear to be the
same
before
they are examined. The two sidebands will not have the correct
phase
relationship.

What do you mean? What is the "correct"
relationship?


One could, temporarily, mistake the added combination for a full
carrier
with independent sidebands, however.




(For sines it is
sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a-b]-cos[a+b])
= 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] -
sin[a+b+90degrees])
= 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] +
sin[a+b-90degrees])
)

--
rb





When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is
modulated

The questions I posed were not about AM. The
subject could have been viewed as DSB but that
wasn't the specific intent either.

What was the subject of your question?

Copying from my original post:

Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude
is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave.
What would it look like on an oscilloscope?
What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer?

Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added
to a 0.9 MHz sine wave.
What would that look like on an oscilloscope?
What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer?




So the first (1) is an AM question and the second (2) is a non-AM
question......

What is the difference between AM and DSB?




AM is a process. DSB (double sideband), with carrier, is it's most
simple
result. DSB without carrier (suppressed carrier dsb) requires using, at
least, a balanced mixer as the AM multiplier.

And requires, for proper reception, that a carrier be recreated at the
receiver which has not only the amplitude of the original,

There is no need at all to match the carrier amplitude of the original
signal. You can use an excessively high carrier injection amplitude with
no
detrimental affect, but if the injected carrier is too little, the
demodulated signal will be over modulated and sound distorted.

but also its exact phase.

Exact, not required. The closer the better, however.

Well, OK, the phase must at least bear a constant relationship to the
one that created the signal. If you inject a carrier that has a
quadrature relationship to the one that created the DSB signal, the
output will be PM (phase modulation). In between zero and 90 degrees,
the output is a combination of the two. If the injected carrier is not
at precisely the proper frequency, the phase will roll around and the
output will be unintelligible.

Not unintelligible.... Donald Duckish.

I think you are confusing *single* sideband, for which that is correct,
and *double* sideband (which we were discussing), for which it is not
true.

What do you propose the term be for the output of a slightly de-tuned
demodulator of a DSB sans carrier, signal?


On a more practical side, however, most receiver filters for ssb will
essentially remove one sideband if there are two, and can attenuate a
carrier so the local product detector can do it's job resulting in improved
receiving conditions. But this is more advanced than the Ops questions.

Doing it that way will work, but it's not "fair", because you are not
actually demodulating a DSB signal (which was the subject of the
discussion).

I don't believe the OP stated whether the DSB signal was with or without
carrier. If without carrier, demodulation is certainly called for. If with
carrier, it hardly merits discussion.


Isaac