AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency onanastronomically-low carrier frequency
"Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 10:16 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 7:52 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: snip cos(a) * cos(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a+b] + cos[a-b]) Basically: multiplying two sine waves is the same as adding the (half amplitude) sum and difference frequencies. No, they aren't the same at all, they only appear to be the same before they are examined. The two sidebands will not have the correct phase relationship. What do you mean? What is the "correct" relationship? One could, temporarily, mistake the added combination for a full carrier with independent sidebands, however. (For sines it is sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a-b]-cos[a+b]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] - sin[a+b+90degrees]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] + sin[a+b-90degrees]) ) -- rb When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is modulated The questions I posed were not about AM. The subject could have been viewed as DSB but that wasn't the specific intent either. onto a carrier via a non-linear process), at an envelope detector the two sidebands will be additive. But if you independe ntly place a carrier at frequency ( c ), another carrier at ( c-1 khz) and another carrier at (c+ 1 kHz), the composite can look like an AM signal, but it is not, and only by the most extreme luck will the sidebands be additive at the detector. They would probably cycle between additive and subtractive since they have no real relationship and were not the result of amplitude modulation. |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "isw" wrote in message ... In article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Keith Dysart" wrote in message ps.com... On Jul 3, 2:07 pm, Keith Dysart wrote: On Jul 3, 12:50 pm, John Fields wrote: On Mon, 2 Jul 2007 23:03:36 -0700, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "John Smith I" wrote in message ... Radium wrote: snip Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave. What would it look like on an oscilloscope? snip What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer? | | | | | | --------+--------------------+-------+------+---- 100kHz 0.9MHz 1MHz 1.1MHz Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added to a 0.9 MHz sine wave. What would that look like on an oscilloscope? snip Tricky!!! It looks like AM but it isn't, it's just the phases sliding past each other slowly and algebraically adding which creates the illusion. What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer? | | | | -----------------------------+--------------+---- 0.9MHz 1.1MHz -- JF But if you remove the half volt bias you put on the 100 kHz signal in the multiplier version, the results look exactly like the summed version, so I suggest that results are the same when a 4 quadrant multiplier is used. And since the original request was for a "1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave" I think a 4 quadrant multiplier is in order. ...Keith- Ooops. I misspoke. They are not quite the same. The spectrum is the same, but if you want to get exactly the same result, the lower frequency needs a 90 degree offset and the upper frequency needs a -90 degree offset. And the amplitudes of the the sum and difference frequencies need to be one half of the amplitude of the frequencies being multiplied. ...Keith You win. :) When I conceived the problem I was thinking cosines actually. In which case there are no phase shifts to worry about in the result. I also forgot the half amplitude factor. While it might not be obvious, the two cases I described are basically identical. And this situation occurs in real life, i.e. in radio signals, oceanography, and guitar tuning. The beat you hear during guitar tuning is not modulation; there is no non-linear process involved (i.e. no multiplication). Isaac In short, the human auditory system is not linear. It has a finite resolution bandwidth. It can't resolve two tones separted by a few Hertz as two separate tones. (But if they are separted by 100 Hz they can easily be separated without hearing a beat.) Two tones 100 Hz apart may or may not be perceived separately; depends on a lot of other factors. MP3 encoding, for example, depends on the ear's (very predictable) inability to discern tones "nearby" to other, louder ones. The same affect can be seen on a spectrum analyzer. Give it two frequencies separated by 1 Hz. Set the resolution bandwidth to 10 Hz. You'll see the peak rise and fall at 1 Hz. Yup. And the spectrum analyzer is (hopefully) a very linear system, producing no intermodulation of its own. Isaac |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "isw" wrote in message ... snip After you get done talking about modulation and sidebands, somebody might want to take a stab at explaining why, if you tune a receiver to the second harmonic (or any other harmonic) of a modulated carrier (AM or FM; makes no difference), the audio comes out sounding exactly as it does if you tune to the fundamental? That is, while the second harmonic of the carrier is twice the frequency of the fundamental, the sidebands of the second harmonic are *not* located at twice the frequencies of the sidebands of the fundamental, but rather precisely as far from the second harmonic of the carrier as they are from the fundamental. Isaac Whoa. I thought you were smoking something but my curiosity is piqued. I tried shortwave stations and heard no harmonics. But that could be blamed on propagation. There is an AM station here at 1.21 MHz that is s9+20dB. Tuned to 2.42 MHz. Nothing. Generally the lowest harmonics should be strongest. Then I remembered that many types of non-linearity favor odd harmonics. Tuned to 3.63 MHz. Holy harmonics, batman. There it was and the modulation was not multiplied! Voices sounded normal pitch. When music was played the pitch was the same on the original and the harmonic. One clue is that the effect comes and goes rather abruptly. It seems to switch in and out rather than fade in an out. Maybe the coming and going is from switching the audio material source? This is strange. If a signal is multiplied then the sidebands should be multiplied too. Maybe the carrier generator is generating a harmonic and the harmonic is also being modulated with the normal audio in the modulator. But then that signal would have to make it through the power amp and the antenna. Possible, but why would it come and go? Strange. Hint: Modulation is a "rate effect". Isaac |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:00:45 -0700, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!"
wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 8:42 PM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 10:16 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 7:52 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: snip cos(a) * cos(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a+b] + cos[a-b]) Basically: multiplying two sine waves is the same as adding the (half amplitude) sum and difference frequencies. No, they aren't the same at all, they only appear to be the same before they are examined. The two sidebands will not have the correct phase relationship. What do you mean? What is the "correct" relationship? One could, temporarily, mistake the added combination for a full carrier with independent sidebands, however. (For sines it is sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a-b]-cos[a+b]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] - sin[a+b+90degrees]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] + sin[a+b-90degrees]) ) -- rb When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is modulated The questions I posed were not about AM. The subject could have been viewed as DSB but that wasn't the specific intent either. What was the subject of your question? Copying from my original post: Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave. What would it look like on an oscilloscope? What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer? Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added to a 0.9 MHz sine wave. What would that look like on an oscilloscope? What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer? --- The first example is amplitude modulation precisely _because_ of the multiplication, while the second is merely the algebraic summation of the instantaneous amplitudes of two waveforms. The circuit lists I posted earlier will, when run using LTSPICE, show exactly what the signals will look like using an oscilloscope and, using the "FFT" option on the "VIEW" menu, give you a pretty good approximation of what they'll look like using a spectrum analyzer. If you don't have LTSPICE it's available free at: http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/ -- JF |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 00:06:02 -0700, isw wrote:
In article , John Fields wrote: On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 09:11:58 -0700, isw wrote: In article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: You win. :) When I conceived the problem I was thinking cosines actually. In which case there are no phase shifts to worry about in the result. I also forgot the half amplitude factor. While it might not be obvious, the two cases I described are basically identical. And this situation occurs in real life, i.e. in radio signals, oceanography, and guitar tuning. The beat you hear during guitar tuning is not modulation; there is no non-linear process involved (i.e. no multiplication). --- That's not true. The human ear has a logarithmic amplitude response and the beat note (the difference frequency) is generated there. The sum frequency is too, but when unison is achieved it'll be at precisely twice the frequency of either fundamental and won't be noticed. Now you get to explain why the beat is measurable with instrumentation, and can can be viewed in the waveform of a high-quality recording. --- Simple. The process isn't totally linear, starting with the musical instrument itself, so some heterodyning will inevitably occur which will be detected by the measuring instrumentation. --- Then go on to show why all other multi-frequency-component signals (e.g. a full orchestra) don't produce similar intermodulation effects in ears under normal conditions. --- They do, and why don't you try being a little less of a pompous ass? -- JF |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
On Jul 5, 10:01 am, John Fields wrote:
On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:00:45 -0700, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 8:42 PM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 10:16 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 7:52 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: snip cos(a) * cos(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a+b] + cos[a-b]) Basically: multiplying two sine waves is the same as adding the (half amplitude) sum and difference frequencies. No, they aren't the same at all, they only appear to be the same before they are examined. The two sidebands will not have the correct phase relationship. What do you mean? What is the "correct" relationship? One could, temporarily, mistake the added combination for a full carrier with independent sidebands, however. (For sines it is sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a-b]-cos[a+b]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] - sin[a+b+90degrees]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] + sin[a+b-90degrees]) ) -- rb When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is modulated The questions I posed were not about AM. The subject could have been viewed as DSB but that wasn't the specific intent either. What was the subject of your question? Copying from my original post: Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave. What would it look like on an oscilloscope? What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer? Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added to a 0.9 MHz sine wave. What would that look like on an oscilloscope? What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer? --- The first example is amplitude modulation precisely _because_ of the multiplication, while the second is merely the algebraic summation of the instantaneous amplitudes of two waveforms. The circuit lists I posted earlier will, when run using LTSPICE, show exactly what the signals will look like using an oscilloscope and, using the "FFT" option on the "VIEW" menu, give you a pretty good approximation of what they'll look like using a spectrum analyzer. If you don't have LTSPICE it's available free at: http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/ -- JF Since your modulator version has a DC offset applied to the 1e5 signal, some of the 1e6 signal is present in the output, so your spectrum has components at .9e6, 1e6 and 1.1e6. To generate the same signal with the summing version you need to add in some 1e6 along with the .9e6 and 1.1e6. The results will be identical and the results of summing will be quite detectable using an envelope detector just as they would be from the modulator version. Alternatively, remove the bias from the .1e6 signal on the modulator version. The spectrum will have only components at .9e6 and 1.1e6. Of course, an envelope detector will not be able to recover this signal, whether generated by the modulator or summing. ....Keith |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
"John Fields" wrote in message ... On Thu, 5 Jul 2007 00:00:45 -0700, "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" snip When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is modulated The questions I posed were not about AM. The subject could have been viewed as DSB but that wasn't the specific intent either. What was the subject of your question? Copying from my original post: Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave. What would it look like on an oscilloscope? What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer? Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added to a 0.9 MHz sine wave. What would that look like on an oscilloscope? What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer? --- The first example is amplitude modulation precisely _because_ of the Is there multiplication in DSB? (double sideband) multiplication, while the second is merely the algebraic summation of the instantaneous amplitudes of two waveforms. The circuit lists I posted earlier will, when run using LTSPICE, I think you did (sin[] + 1) * (sin[] + 1) not sin() * sin() show exactly what the signals will look like using an oscilloscope and, using the "FFT" option on the "VIEW" menu, give you a pretty good approximation of what they'll look like using a spectrum analyzer. If you don't have LTSPICE it's available free at: http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/ Yes, I have LTSPICE. It is pretty good. -- JF |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulationfrequencyonanastronomically-low carrier frequency
On 7/5/07 12:00 AM, in article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 8:42 PM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 10:16 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "Don Bowey" wrote in message ... On 7/4/07 7:52 AM, in article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: snip cos(a) * cos(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a+b] + cos[a-b]) Basically: multiplying two sine waves is the same as adding the (half amplitude) sum and difference frequencies. No, they aren't the same at all, they only appear to be the same before they are examined. The two sidebands will not have the correct phase relationship. What do you mean? What is the "correct" relationship? One could, temporarily, mistake the added combination for a full carrier with independent sidebands, however. (For sines it is sin(a) * sin(b) = 0.5 * (cos[a-b]-cos[a+b]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] - sin[a+b+90degrees]) = 0.5 * (sin[a-b+90degrees] + sin[a+b-90degrees]) ) -- rb When AM is correctly accomplished (a single voiceband signal is modulated The questions I posed were not about AM. The subject could have been viewed as DSB but that wasn't the specific intent either. What was the subject of your question? Copying from my original post: Suppose you have a 1 MHz sine wave whose amplitude is multiplied by a 0.1 MHz sine wave. What would it look like on an oscilloscope? What would it look like on a spectrum analyzer? Then suppose you have a 1.1 MHz sine wave added to a 0.9 MHz sine wave. What would that look like on an oscilloscope? What would that look like on a spectrum analyzer? So the first (1) is an AM question and the second (2) is a non-AM question...... (1 A) On scope will be a classical envelope showing what appears to be the carrier amplitude voltage varying from the effects of the sideband phases and voltages. It's an optical delusion, but is good for viewing linearity and % modulation. (1 B) The spectrum analyzer will show a carrier at 1 MHz, a carrier at 999.9 kHz (LSB), and a carrier at 1.1 MHz (USB). (1 C) Not asked, but needing an answer here, is "if the .1 MHZ modulation were replaced by a changing signal such as speech or music what would the analyzer show?" It would show an unchanging Carrier at 1 MHZ with frequency and amplitude changing sidebands extending above and below the unchanging carrier. (2 A) The scope would display a 1.1 MHz sine wave and a .9 MHz sine wave. They could be free-running or, depending on the scope features, either one or both could be used to sync a/the trace(s). (2 B) The spectrum analyzer will show a carrier at 1.1 MHz, and a carrier at .9 MHz. Don |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "isw" wrote in message ... In article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "isw" wrote in message ... snip After you get done talking about modulation and sidebands, somebody might want to take a stab at explaining why, if you tune a receiver to the second harmonic (or any other harmonic) of a modulated carrier (AM or FM; makes no difference), the audio comes out sounding exactly as it does if you tune to the fundamental? That is, while the second harmonic of the carrier is twice the frequency of the fundamental, the sidebands of the second harmonic are *not* located at twice the frequencies of the sidebands of the fundamental, but rather precisely as far from the second harmonic of the carrier as they are from the fundamental. Isaac Whoa. I thought you were smoking something but my curiosity is piqued. I tried shortwave stations and heard no harmonics. But that could be blamed on propagation. There is an AM station here at 1.21 MHz that is s9+20dB. Tuned to 2.42 MHz. Nothing. Generally the lowest harmonics should be strongest. Then I remembered that many types of non-linearity favor odd harmonics. Tuned to 3.63 MHz. Holy harmonics, batman. There it was and the modulation was not multiplied! Voices sounded normal pitch. When music was played the pitch was the same on the original and the harmonic. One clue is that the effect comes and goes rather abruptly. It seems to switch in and out rather than fade in an out. Maybe the coming and going is from switching the audio material source? This is strange. If a signal is multiplied then the sidebands should be multiplied too. Maybe the carrier generator is generating a harmonic and the harmonic is also being modulated with the normal audio in the modulator. But then that signal would have to make it through the power amp and the antenna. Possible, but why would it come and go? Strange. Hint: Modulation is a "rate effect". Isaac Please elaborate. I am so eager to hear the explanation. The sidebands only show up because there is a rate of change of the carrier -- amplitude or frequency/phase, depending; they aren't separate, stand-alone signals. Since the rate of change of the amplitude of the second harmonic is identical to that of the fundamental, the sidebands show up the same distance away, not twice as distant. Isaac |
AM electromagnetic waves: 20 KHz modulation frequency on an astronomically-low carrier frequency
In article ,
"Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: "isw" wrote in message ... In article , "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" wrote: snip While it might not be obvious, the two cases I described are basically identical. And this situation occurs in real life, i.e. in radio signals, oceanography, and guitar tuning. The beat you hear during guitar tuning is not modulation; there is no non-linear process involved (i.e. no multiplication). Isaac In short, the human auditory system is not linear. It has a finite resolution bandwidth. It can't resolve two tones separted by a few Hertz as two separate tones. (But if they are separted by 100 Hz they can easily be separated without hearing a beat.) Two tones 100 Hz apart may or may not be perceived separately; depends on a lot of other factors. MP3 encoding, for example, depends on the ear's (very predictable) inability to discern tones "nearby" to other, louder ones. I'll remember that the next time I'm tuning an MP3 guitar. The same affect can be seen on a spectrum analyzer. Give it two frequencies separated by 1 Hz. Set the resolution bandwidth to 10 Hz. You'll see the peak rise and fall at 1 Hz. Yup. And the spectrum analyzer is (hopefully) a very linear system, producing no intermodulation of its own. Isaac What does a spectrum analyzer use to arive at amplitude values? An envelope detector? Is that linear? I'm sure there's more than one way to do it, but I feel certain that any competently designed unit will not add any signals of its own to what it is being used to analyze. Isaac |
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