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BPL strikes another win ...
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BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
http://www.redherring.com/Home/22562 JS Allot like dumping crude oil into a creek for 'Easy Transportation to the Refinery', no extra infrastructure required. |
BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
http://www.redherring.com/Home/22562 It's "your" own fault. When I complained to Google, no one else did. When I suggested a boycot of Google, everyone thought I was crazy. It was "your" choice, Google and their BPL, or Ham radio. Which did you decide? Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ |
BPL strikes another win ...
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
... It was "your" choice, Google and their BPL, or Ham radio. Which did you decide? Geoff. When the sword challenged the rock, the sword won. When the gun challenged the sword, the gun won. When the automobile challenged the horse, the auto won. When the washing machine challenged the washboard, the machine won. When tubes challenged the spark-gap xmitter, the tube won. When penicillin challenged herbs, penicillin won. When the birth control pill challenged the condom, the pill won. Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... Regards, JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: ... It was "your" choice, Google and their BPL, or Ham radio. Which did you decide? Geoff. When the sword challenged the rock, the sword won. When the gun challenged the sword, the gun won. When the automobile challenged the horse, the auto won. When the washing machine challenged the washboard, the machine won. When tubes challenged the spark-gap xmitter, the tube won. When penicillin challenged herbs, penicillin won. When the birth control pill challenged the condom, the pill won. Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... Regards, JS Oh yeah, and I forgot, but you are quite correct. They were warned; and, they thought they knew better. But then, their history does not reflect one of a well educated or "gray matter endowed" group ... the few intelligent amateurs' voice were drowned out by the insane masses .... now we have what they strode towards with such determination, while beating out a war march tune on their brass keys--amateur freqs will be assimilated by the internet, resistance is futile ... and God seen this was good ... Regards, JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
http://www.redherring.com/Home/22562 JS Hello John and all: One of the things that I haven't seen covered about BPL, is the installation and maintenance costs involved, in a power grid system. We all know that when a system is modified for something that it wasn't designed for that problems will surface. I'll bet money that the power grid system modification and maintenance may be have a significant cost. That was not totally covered, or audited. Jay in the Mojave |
BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: ... It was "your" choice, Google and their BPL, or Ham radio. Which did you decide? Geoff. When the sword challenged the rock, the sword won. When the gun challenged the sword, the gun won. When the automobile challenged the horse, the auto won. When the washing machine challenged the washboard, the machine won. When tubes challenged the spark-gap xmitter, the tube won. When penicillin challenged herbs, penicillin won. When the birth control pill challenged the condom, the pill won. Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... Regards, JS This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. This group will be beaming porn wirelessly throughout the world, what an accomplishment. They should feel proud! Chris |
BPL strikes another win ...
Christopher Cox wrote:
John Smith I wrote: ... Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. No, I think the engineers are saying 'It can be done, but it will interfere...' and the bean counters look at the 'but it will interfere...' part as the obstacle to overcome (buy off). Engineers don't call the shots, the lawyers and accountants do. If you want someone or something to blame, blame the 'any profit is good' mind set of the greed heads and the politicians who obey their big campaign contributors. |
BPL strikes another win ...
On Aug 16, 12:03 am, John Smith I wrote:
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: ... It was "your" choice, Google and their BPL, or Ham radio. Which did you decide? Geoff. When the sword challenged the rock, the sword won. When the gun challenged the sword, the gun won. When the automobile challenged the horse, the auto won. When the washing machine challenged the washboard, the machine won. When tubes challenged the spark-gap xmitter, the tube won. When penicillin challenged herbs, penicillin won. When the birth control pill challenged the condom, the pill won. Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... When my henry 2k classic and yagi pointed at the power line challenges BPL... Hummmm, this could get ugly... No matter what mode I use. BPL is a two lane highway. I should be as much of a pest them to them, as them to me.. Two weeks of me, and I'll have the BPL/power company speaking in tongues if they ever decide to install that mess around here. MK |
BPL strikes another win ...
gwatts wrote:
Christopher Cox wrote: John Smith I wrote: ... Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. No, I think the engineers are saying 'It can be done, but it will interfere...' and the bean counters look at the 'but it will interfere...' part as the obstacle to overcome (buy off). Engineers don't call the shots, the lawyers and accountants do. If you want someone or something to blame, blame the 'any profit is good' mind set of the greed heads and the politicians who obey their big campaign contributors. I apologize for specifying "Engineers" in my previous post, it was not intentional. It is frustrating when fact is trumped by the use of relentless verbiage. Chris |
BPL strikes another win ...
Christopher Cox wrote:
gwatts wrote: Christopher Cox wrote: John Smith I wrote: ... Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. No, I think the engineers are saying 'It can be done, but it will interfere...' and the bean counters look at the 'but it will interfere...' part as the obstacle to overcome (buy off). Engineers don't call the shots, the lawyers and accountants do. If you want someone or something to blame, blame the 'any profit is good' mind set of the greed heads and the politicians who obey their big campaign contributors. I apologize for specifying "Engineers" in my previous post, it was not intentional. 'Engineer' has become a generic term. It's easy to understand why many different professions tend to be referred to as 'engineers,' it has a ring of technical competence to it, for now, and that's why it's co-opted so often. It is frustrating when fact is trumped by the use of relentless verbiage. Or by relentless, willful ignorance, like that on the part of the FCC when it comes to BPL (and a few other services...sigh). The FCC has become another heavily politicized entity run by party hacks endeavoring to abrogate the rights of the little people in favor of the almighty, short-term bottom line. Don't get me wrong, I think profits are good, but not at any cost and certainly not at the expense of future generations, expenses economic, social, environmental... Sigh, Galen, W8LNA |
BPL strikes another win ...
Christopher Cox wrote:
... This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. This group will be beaming porn wirelessly throughout the world, what an accomplishment. They should feel proud! Chris The old failed logic recycled one more time; go keep track of who had licenses before code was dropped ... eat your lotus blossoms--it always worked before ... JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
gwatts wrote:
... No, I think the engineers are saying 'It can be done, but it will interfere...' and the bean counters look at the 'but it will interfere...' part as the obstacle to overcome (buy off). Engineers don't call the shots, the lawyers and accountants do. If you want someone or something to blame, blame the 'any profit is good' mind set of the greed heads and the politicians who obey their big campaign contributors. I think you got it all wrong ... Thinking people decided amateur radio could be left as it is, a good ole boys club of cranky old men communicating at a few WPM ... or, be used to assist millions in high speed data exchange ... the jet plane challenges the horse drawn cart. JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
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BPL strikes another win ...
Jay in the Mojave wrote:
... Jay in the Mojave From all I have seen, nothing is modified, a tap is made and BPL installed. The power grid stands as before ... however, the system I looked at was almost entirely underground to businesses and homes. JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
Jay in the Mojave wrote:
John Smith I wrote: http://www.redherring.com/Home/22562 JS Hello John and all: One of the things that I haven't seen covered about BPL, is the installation and maintenance costs involved, in a power grid system. We all know that when a system is modified for something that it wasn't designed for that problems will surface. I'll bet money that the power grid system modification and maintenance may be have a significant cost. That was not totally covered, or audited. We've all heard the nightmare stories and seen the enforcement actions taken against Power companies that can't be bothered to fix a broken insulator, bad ground wire, noisy transformer, or whatever that is causing havoc to hams nearby. If they do put in BPL, it will be their very own customers who complain to them. Then they have less of a choice, assuming they want to keep their BPL customers. And they still have to run the fiber. Why don't they just try selling fiber access? Somewhere somehow we got a popular misconception that there is some sort of magic box at the power generating station that supplies internet access to the world. It ain't so. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - |
BPL strikes another win ...
Christopher Cox wrote:
John Smith I wrote: Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: ... It was "your" choice, Google and their BPL, or Ham radio. Which did you decide? Geoff. When the sword challenged the rock, the sword won. When the gun challenged the sword, the gun won. When the automobile challenged the horse, the auto won. When the washing machine challenged the washboard, the machine won. When tubes challenged the spark-gap xmitter, the tube won. When penicillin challenged herbs, penicillin won. When the birth control pill challenged the condom, the pill won. Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... Regards, JS This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. It is a political process more than an engineering one. The idea that you "just" plug into the wall socket for your internet is almost irresistible to people who don't actually know how things actually work. Very few things "just" work. This group will be beaming porn wirelessly throughout the world, what an accomplishment. They should feel proud! Oh, BPL will fail, either through pure technical flopping, or the marketplace moving on. None of the arguments for it hold water. My favorite is the argument that it will provide internet service for people in remote areas where they can't get service now. Presumably they don't have service because there isn't any fiber nearby, where other BB providers pick up their signals, and distribute them. All they have to do is run the fiber to these underserved areas. (we all do know that BPL is a last mile delivery service don't we?) Of course that means there will be fiber in the area, so the other providers can come in and beat the pants off of BPL in terms of speed and reliability. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - |
BPL strikes another win ...
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BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
Christopher Cox wrote: ... This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. This group will be beaming porn wirelessly throughout the world, what an accomplishment. They should feel proud! Chris The old failed logic recycled one more time; go keep track of who had licenses before code was dropped ... eat your lotus blossoms--it always worked before ... The idea that BPL cam about in order to punish Hams who like Morse code is a new one. - 73 de Mike KB3EIa - |
BPL strikes another win ...
Michael Coslo wrote:
... The idea that BPL cam about in order to punish Hams who like Morse code is a new one. - 73 de Mike KB3EIa - Now, there is the mindset which got us here in the first place, don't you get it? Hams are just NOT important enough to justify punishment, they simply are holding onto a fraction of the public airwaves which can be placed to much better use ... get real. JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
Michael Coslo wrote:
... Oh, BPL will fail, either through pure technical flopping, or the marketplace moving on. None of the arguments for it hold water. My ... Could be ... these things have a way of working themselves out ... time will tell ... I wouldn't count on it failing though. I'd count on new technology being developed which makes it even more desirable, something shown by history as much more likely. JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
Michael Coslo wrote:
... Your Henry and directional antenna would silence a pretty big area, MK. QRP levels have been able to knock the signals out on occasion, and a hundred watts in a mobile can keep a lot of people safe from porn. Note that no intentional interference applies - all perfectly legal Amateur radio use. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Frankly, I'd like to see it, would find the attempt(s) highly entertaining. And, the solutions to such would just be icing on the cake! JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote: ... The idea that BPL cam about in order to punish Hams who like Morse code is a new one. - 73 de Mike KB3EIa - Now, there is the mindset which got us here in the first place, don't you get it? Hams are just NOT important enough to justify punishment, they simply are holding onto a fraction of the public airwaves which can be placed to much better use ... get real. Define 'better.' |
BPL strikes another win ...
Michael Coslo wrote:
... Your Henry and directional antenna would silence a pretty big area, MK. QRP levels have been able to knock the signals out on occasion, and a hundred watts in a mobile can keep a lot of people safe from porn. Note that no intentional interference applies - all perfectly legal Amateur radio use. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Of course you realize, as BPL becomes of a major importance, attempts will be made to make the lines EMP hardened (most lines are now going underground in this attempt, as we speak), you linears will look as a matchstick held beside a 1,000,000 candle-power lamp--but then, you already knew that. You are simply in the cycle of denial/acceptance ... JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
On Aug 16, 9:21 am, John Smith I wrote:
You just don't get the power of digital do you? Or, the laws which will come ... however, confiscation of that ancient and moth ridden amp and the fine which will be imposed will be something sane men will wish to avoid ... I have a 5KW (never run over a calif kilo of input though :-) )russian amp, its' last days are in sight :-( JS How would I get fined for pointing my antenna to Europe? It legal for me to point my antenna to Europe, run an amp, and talk all day if I want to. I don't run 5 KW amps, calif kilo's, or other illegal activities as you admit to doing. So I would expect you to get a fine before I would. BTW, the amp is an 81 model. Yes, fairly ancient, but it has no moths living in it. As Mike points out, I probably wouldn't even need it to keep BPL on hold. My amp will only do about 1400w max, so I have no fear of breaking any power level rules. Just my 100w radio into the yagi, aimed at Europe would probably do the job. I have this vision in my mind of a bunch of BPL techs jabbering away like the guy in the movie "Cape Fear" as he's drowning in the river.. Abadabajumbalikearedoka, aubadbababababdbaba. LOL...Kills me to ponder the scenario.. So while you are moaning and groaning about the problem, I will be taking care of it myself in an orderly military manner. Any problems they have will be due to their own shoddy system design and line leakage which is a two way street I remind.. Not my gear. So they won't have a leg to stand on if they or even you complain to the FCC. MK |
BPL strikes another win ...
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BPL strikes another win ...
On Aug 16, 10:47 am, John Smith I wrote:
wrote: ... Well, in my neighborhood/city, you could not get into any trouble. All lines are underground. What you cite is a moot point. But if thats the case, they would probably not be much of an issue to me as far as trashing my rcvr. Except for exceeding safe rf levels, I cannot see a problem. No worries there... Anyway, BPL is best suited for remote areas (your neighbor is over in the next 40 acres), the new 700Mhz would be far more suited to towns/cities. I don't think it's very well suited there either, if using overhead lines. I have property in a remote area of OK. on Lake Eufaula, and of course, I run a station there. That's my "antenna farm"..lol.. I've got antennas strung through the trees. I'm gonna plant low band beverages there this fall if I can gather up enough inertia and wire. And all the power lines in that general area are overhead. I'll make remote area BPL techs bark at the moon just as easily there, as here in big H. And the problem would likely rear it's ugly head quicker there, as overall the noise level is lower there vs big H, being I'm out in the boonies. They could have that mess miles away and I might hear it. But I have lines nearby too, as most do out there. :( Isn't the real excitement watching this new technology develop, with solutions found "on the fly?" Not really. I've seen so much new technology develop in the past 50 years, I think I've become uncomfortably numb. It really doesn't excite me too much. I'd just as soon walk around around in the woods and see if I can count all my trees.. :/ BPL is not really new technology anyway. Seems to me Japan and Germany already tried and ditched it as unpractical. It's been around a while. MK |
BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote: ... The idea that BPL cam about in order to punish Hams who like Morse code is a new one. - 73 de Mike KB3EIa - Now, there is the mindset which got us here in the first place, don't you get it? Actually no, I don't. A side effect of BPL might be to harm the bands that amateurs operate on, but I can't even imagine the people who push this merde having a thought of inconveniencing Morse code lovers. Hams are just NOT important enough to justify punishment, they simply are holding onto a fraction of the public airwaves which can be placed to much better use ... get real. HF is an unruly beast, and not well suited to any kind of distance limiting needs. Years ago there were wireless home phones around 11 meters. They didn't work too well. A large part of that was HF type problems of static, big antennas and propagation effects. Anyone who wants to work in HF, especially digitally, will have to reckon with those effects. The political types who promote use of HF for this seldom understand that. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - |
BPL strikes another win ...
Michael Coslo wrote:
... Anyone who wants to work in HF, especially digitally, will have to reckon with those effects. The political types who promote use of HF for this seldom understand that. - 73 de Mike KB3EIA - Actually, no, not everyone has to study HF to see if your argument holds water or not. YOU just need to see a BPL modem at work--it'll blow away any doubts you may have as to it being suited to HS data xfer over power-lines ... JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
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BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote:
Christopher Cox wrote: ... This has nothing to do with the Internet or code tapping amateurs. It has to do with some intellectually devoid engineers challenging the reality of the Nyquist rate and placing a device on the only radio frequencys that can be naturally propagated through out the planet. This group will be beaming porn wirelessly throughout the world, what an accomplishment. They should feel proud! Chris The old failed logic recycled one more time; go keep track of who had licenses before code was dropped ... eat your lotus blossoms--it always worked before ... JS John, You are making some poor assumptions. I do not frequent the radio HF spectrum. While I have operated CW before, it has been years ago, largely to gain privileges to HF. I make my living in the Voip/Data world and would like to push broadband consumption like a utility. That being said, I liken BPL to pee'ing into a stream. While I might not get my drinking water from it, someone or thing probably does. Just because BPL is not polluting spectrum I might be using today does not mean its not polluting someone else. Additionally, BPL's maximum data rate of 2 Mbps makes it late coming and soon not even considered broadband. I do not understand why you would fight for something you probably would not even want in the future. Lets lay down some fiber, or at least twisted pair. The facts are old, arguments for BPL vary because of their faulty logic, not the other way around. Chris |
BPL strikes another win ...
Christopher Cox wrote:
... Your ideas are great, IF, and that is a big IF, those lines are open to cheap access by all and available for use by ALL devices (basically the cost of repair/maintain). Otherwise BPL should stand vanguard and be used to remove control from phone companies/BIG_MONEY ... Regards, JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I wrote in news:fa0lr6$o3q$1
@news.albasani.net: Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: ... It was "your" choice, Google and their BPL, or Ham radio. Which did you decide? Geoff. When the sword challenged the rock, the sword won. When the gun challenged the sword, the gun won. When the automobile challenged the horse, the auto won. When the washing machine challenged the washboard, the machine won. When tubes challenged the spark-gap xmitter, the tube won. When penicillin challenged herbs, penicillin won. When the birth control pill challenged the condom, the pill won. Now the internet challenges code tapping amateurs ... Rocks break swords. Any system that leaks RF in one direction will leak it both ways. -- Dave Oldridge+ ICQ 1800667 |
BPL strikes another win ...
Dave Oldridge wrote:
... Rocks break swords. Any system that leaks RF in one direction will leak it both ways. And mice scare elephants, but for no good reason and little consequence ... JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
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BPL strikes another win ...
John Smith I ) writes:
... however, the system I looked at was almost entirely underground to businesses and homes. An interesting point! And did this underground system radiate at HF?? It seems to me that if a BPL system can be made that doesn't radiate at HF, then I have no problem with it. .... Martin VE3OAT |
BPL strikes another win ...
Roy Lewallen wrote in
: wrote: How would I get fined for pointing my antenna to Europe? It legal for me to point my antenna to Europe, run an amp, and talk all day if I want to. . . . . . So while you are moaning and groaning about the problem, I will be taking care of it myself in an orderly military manner. Any problems they have will be due to their own shoddy system design and line leakage which is a two way street I remind.. Not my gear. So they won't have a leg to stand on if they or even you complain to the FCC. Do you really seriously believe that if your amateur operation was causing a huge company to lose money that the FCC or any other government entity would take your side? Boy, have I got news for you! Yes Roy, it is incredibly naive! Just another of the hundreds of false reasons why 'BPL won't affect me'. I don't know of the situation in the US, but in Australia, a licence to transmit on a given frequency does not override another law that in a very general way prohibits interfering with a telecommunications carriage service. So, in Australia, it may be that no new legislation is needed to silence hams who disrupt a BPL system (interfere with a telecommunications carriage service). Some of us continue to work on objective measurement of ambient noise levels and BPL emissions to document to issue, and the risk to BPL deployments if they are held to lower emissions than they would like. Right now I am working on documentation of a series of measurements made prior to BPL deployment in Sydney. Another series will be made after deployment, and the measurements by an EMC test house and the WIA will be considered by the carrier, the regulator, and the relevant Australian standards committee in a more cooperative environment than seems to exist in some jurisdictions. Interestingly, the EMC test houses invariably use equipment that is not capable of measuring ambient noise levels on HF, they are just not sufficiently sensitive. This is a worry, especially when rumour has it that ITU-R is working on a revision of P.372-8 'Radio Noise' that is likely to see an increase in expected ambient noise levels on HF. The inevitable creep of spectrum pollution. As part of our study of the site in Sydney, we will be trying to justify exclusion of the carrier's noisy SMPS on their PayTV equipment from determination of the ambient noise levels. OTOH, we have used a Buddipole and FSM to make measurements of ambient noise levels that are not invalidated by instrument noise. An article characterising the Buddipole for use with FSM is at http://www.vk1od.net/buddipole/index.htm . The fact remains that we hams do not well understand our operating environment, and sadly, seem to have little interest in it. Oh well, there will probably be more development of simulators for the HF experience in the future! Owen |
BPL strikes another win ...
Martin Potter wrote:
An interesting point! And did this underground system radiate at HF?? ... ... Martin VE3OAT Martin: It is the house lines which have some amateurs worried, unless you have an underground home, or all lines are run through properly shielded conduit (NOT likely!), this is what worries most amateurs ... Although I use 10/11 meters daily and 80 meters 2/3 times a week, most of my operations have moved vhf/uhf/shf. I think that is the future. HF simply servers too few to demand the consideration some wish. Regards, JS |
BPL strikes another win ...
On Aug 16, 7:31 pm, Roy Lewallen wrote:
Do you really seriously believe that if your amateur operation was causing a huge company to lose money that the FCC or any other government entity would take your side? Boy, have I got news for you! Roy Lewallen, W7EL I don't care if they do or not. They most certainly would not be able to fine me if I'm not breaking any amateur rules. What are they going to do, shut down every ham in the area? There are 143 hams just in my close general area which would cover the 77096 and 77035 zip codes.. And that's a very small portion of this town. Maybe within a 5 mile radius? If I'm not trashing their system, someone else will be. The FCC will be busy in this area. I suppose they will have to shut down everyone if they want a clean BPL system. I don't see it myself. I'd fight them on it if they pressed the issue with me. And I rarely actually run an amp these days. If my 100w causes them problems, I'd consider that a personal problem of the BPL system owners. I actually don't see it coming to this area anytime soon being we already have cable, etc.. I don't think it would sell too well, being cable is already just as fast or faster. MK |
BPL strikes another win ...
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