MK,

Hi. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 03:06:18 -0700, wrote:
On Oct 8, 9:16 pm, Frnak McKenney
wrote:

Is it possible that I'm picking up a non-WWV dignal so strong that
it's masking WWV? I tried tuning around 10MHz with a shortwave
radio; it didn't find WWV -- not a particularly hopeful sign -- but
it did pick up a station called (IIRC) WWCR. WWCR's 'web site
(www.wwcr.com) lists its transmitter #4 as using 9.985MHz and
9.975MHz between 0900 and 2100 CST.

Sounds like it's being masked by some type of noise,
but this could just be from the signal being very weak.

If you can hear other stations ok, it probably the propagation
more than anything. Being that you can barely hear it on a
regular receiver seems to bear this out.

Sigh. So... there isn't some kind of cubist-wire-sculpture shape I
can bend my antenna into and magically make WWV appear? grin!

Unless a noise is local, and you are trying to null it, I see no
real advantage to using a small loop vs whatever else.

I constrained the problem by insisting on "indoor" and "small".
From your feedback, and my experience, it looks like I won't get
much further unless/until I'm willing to relax one of my
constraints.

I would make sure you don't have any local noise. IE:
powerline noise, etc. If you did, the loop would be a good
antenna to null that noise as long as you can turn it.
But if there is no local noise, and the noise you hear is
atmospheric, then it's not going to matter much what
you use.

I built a long-wire "antenna" last evening and I _thought_ my signal
picked up a bit... for a little while, anyway. I took a 100'
extension cord and unreeled it from the west end of the house to the
east end where the MAC-II is set up. On the floor. (Hardly a
"phased array"grin!, but I wanted to try _something_.)

I put the (plastic) reel with the rest of the cord up about a foot
away from my "loop", and I did seem to get a stronger signal
(translation: on the fade-ins it sounded a bit louder). I could
hear the "notes" fairly well at times and I could _almost_ make out
what was being said in the the voice segment. On the other hand,
this was somewhere around 1800, give or take an hour, and the signal
was fading in and out... it could have simply been due to
atmospheric conditions.

One good thing I learned was that I may have been tuning my antenna
incorrectly. It seems that there is a "roaring" that peaks the
GCW-1001's LED stack, but when I can distinguish the WWV tones and
maximize their loudness through the speaker I'm slightly _below_
that "roaring". In other words, I _have_ been mis-tuning, and
inadvertently helping drown WWV's signal out. Ouch. Wish I had an
accurate 10MHz signal generator; what I have is intended for audio
work and limited to about 1.5MHz.

I've got a hunch that the propagation is just the pits for
you right now.

Well, that's certainly a true description of what I'm experiencing
grin!, but I've had the MAC-II since 2004 and suffered the same
poor lock-in, and a MAC-I (GC-1000) a decade (ack!) behaved
similarly. 'Course, I used its built-in whip (something the MAC-II
lacks); I didn't build _it_ an antenna of its very own. grin!

I wouldn't be surprised if you tried it in a couple of months
and it worked ok.. If you hear it on the regular radio ok,
the clock should too. If you can't hear it on the regular
radio, the clock probably won't either, and there is
probably not much you can do about it.

I was afraid of that. I suppose I could build a battery-powered RF
amplifier and stick it on the antenna, but the trick (stop me if
you've heard this one grin!) is to make just-the-stuff-I-want
louder. Making _everything_ louder doesn't help me.

There should be times that it comes in fairly decent though,
depending on time of day, etc..
I would use what you hear on the regular receiver as to
whether the signal is really there or not.

You're probably right. Means I have to clear off some more lab
bench space next to the MAC-II, and I should probably re-tighten the
dial cord on the Mohican and dust off its tuning capacitor plates.
grin!

This may wind up being a classic example of the "DIY-DYI
Transformation": a "really neat" do-it-yourself idea which started
out simply enough, but which has somehow turned into a
must-complete, spare-no-expenses Do-Yourself-In Project. grin?

Propagation on most of the HF bands has been fairly
flaky the last few months. IE: I got on 40m in the daytime
the last time I was in OK, and it was like I was on 20m..
Band was real stretched out, and pretty long skip zones.
I'd miss the semi locals I'd usually talk to, and end up
hearing stations 1000 miles away instead.

So... if I ran this really long piece of coax out to Oklahoma, then
I could pick up Fort Collins really well via skip? I've got a bunch
of A/V 75ohm stuff, and some old T-Base2 Ethernet cables; that's a
start... (Riiiight! grin!)

I think it's time to step back and think about what I've discovered
and learn a bit more theory; my ARRL Antenna Handbook (1991ed)
arrived in yesterday's mail, so I'll be learning from The Source.
(I sent my brother Bruce an e-mail message a few days back
explaining why antenna length mattered; it made sense at the time,
but I may have to revise it after some more reading.)

And, if I decide I need a radio-based time source before I can get a
good WWV signal, I could always hack a WWVB clock -- as long as it
had a dead LCD panel or something: I have this weird reluctance to
tear apart anything that is still working. grin!

Assuming, of course, that I can pick up WWV_B_ here. grin?

Anyway, thanks for reassuring me that my poor WWV reception really
might not be due to a poor antenna design. If I ever come up with a
Really Good Solution I'll post back here.


Frank
--
Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is
no path and leave a trail. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut minds pring dawt cahm (y'all)

Frnak McKenney wrote:
Anyway, thanks for reassuring me that my poor WWV reception really
might not be due to a poor antenna design. If I ever come up with a
Really Good Solution I'll post back here.

What would help you is an outdoor active antenna. For a start look at MFJ's.
It's a metal box with an amplifier in it, and a whip antenna. It uses a
small box at the receiver end to pass DC up the coax to power it.

Placing it outside would help. Placing it outside and away from noise
sources, or on the roof would help more. A whip antenna is used because
it's a cheap commerical off-the-shelf (COTS) item. It could be replaced
with a thin wire. The coax could be replaced with a run of (more expensive)
mini-coax. This would make it easier to hide and you may be able to use it.

If you are handy with building things, there are lots of designs for similar
devices, the easiest is a single MMIC type amplfier. It may be more difficult
to actually do as they are very sensitive to static.

If all you have is a window, a loop around it would do. If it has a metal frame,
and all 4 sides are connected to each other, you can try using it as a loop.
If not, thin wire held up by transparent tape, or that metal tape used by
alarm systems would work.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel N3OWJ/4X1GM
IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838
Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/

Geoff.,

Thanks for adding your comments.

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:34:08 +0000 (UTC), Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Frnak McKenney wrote:
Anyway, thanks for reassuring me that my poor WWV reception really
might not be due to a poor antenna design. If I ever come up with a
Really Good Solution I'll post back here.

What would help you is an outdoor active antenna. For a start look at MFJ's.
It's a metal box with an amplifier in it, and a whip antenna. It uses a
small box at the receiver end to pass DC up the coax to power it.

I looked around and found http://www.mfjenterprises.com/
Their MFJ-1020C looks interesting.

For now, though, I think I want to concentrate on getting as much as
I can from "bare wire".

Placing it outside would help. Placing it outside and away from noise
sources, or on the roof would help more. A whip antenna is used because
it's a cheap commerical off-the-shelf (COTS) item. It could be replaced
with a thin wire. The coax could be replaced with a run of (more expensive)
mini-coax. This would make it easier to hide and you may be able to use it.

The old GC-1000 had a built-in whip; the GCW-1001 doesn't even have
that... just a threaded 50ohm coax connector.

If you are handy with building things, there are lots of designs for similar
devices, the easiest is a single MMIC type amplfier. It may be more difficult
to actually do as they are very sensitive to static.

I'll see what I can find. Thanks for the keyword.

If all you have is a window, a loop around it would do. If it has a metal frame,
and all 4 sides are connected to each other, you can try using it as a loop.
If not, thin wire held up by transparent tape, or that metal tape used by
alarm systems would work.

I like that -- there's a window/storm window about 4' away facing
east.

As to your other post...

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:09:08 +0000 (UTC), Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Frnak McKenney wrote:
Not sure what you could be referring to... other than the three
computers, 25" monitor, printer, Atmel AVR development board (8MHz
clock), flourescent desk lamp, and overhead I-look-like-an-
incandescent flourescent helix... all within 3 feet of the antenna
and clock. grin!

With all that hardware, wouldn't NTP (internet time) be a better option? Or if
you are not too deep into steel and concrete a GPS receiver?

Both of these would be excellent ways of keeping an accurate time
source at hand, and it would be perfectly reasonable to assume that
that was what I was trying to accomplish. I apologize for the lack
of clarity; let me back up a bit.

When I started out, I simply wanted to learn about how antennas
worked, how an EM wave made it from point A to point B in a way that
would let me... how do I say it? "Fit all the pieces together"?
And, as part of that, I was trying to see how well I could take
basic principles and make-with-my-hands something that demonstrated
that (a) I had understood correctly and that (b) I could actually
build something that worked.

I'd had the MAC-II around for more than three years, sitting in the
background and mildly annoying me because every power hiccup reset
the display to its startup "not SEt" text and it could be months
before it was running again. Mildly annoying, but I didn't have a
serious need to know exactly what time it was.

It occurred to me (eventually grin!) that building An Antenna that
made the MAC-II a more dependable TOD source would be a Really Good
Test Of My Antenna Building Skills... sort of like learning to swim
by jumping off a dock. As silly as that may sound, when you're
venturing into unfamiliar territory (and as a consultant, I do a lot
of that) there's always a new kind of swimming to learn, and there
always seems to be a dock you eventually wind up jumping off if
you're going to learn very much.

So if it looks like my "stroke" is extremely poor at this point,
well, that's likely; on the other hand, I'm not exactly drowning,
either. I'm waving my hands in all directions, learning what seems
to make me move and what doesn't, and listening to helpful comments
from the Peanut Gallery on the dock. Youse guys. grin!

Throwing money at the prob... er, "adopting a pre-packaged
solution" grin! gets me the Time Of Day -- precise, reliable,
hopefully accurate -- but it doesn't help me learn how to swim...
er, build antennas. And, besides, my budget is a bit tight at this
point, which means no new test equipment... I don't suppose anyone
knows how to generate an accurate 10MHz alignment signal by rubbing
a 1.5MHz Function Generator and a Tek465 'scope together? grin!

Okay... I'm sure that's more than most (all?) of you wanted to
know. Please feel free to recycle this post in an environmentally
acceptable manner. grin!


Frank
--
"...in the end, it's simply about telling stories, in conditions
that allow me to do my best work. 'The exercise of vital powers
along lines of excellence in a life affording them scope,' to
quote the Greek definition of happiness."
-- J.M. Straczynski ("Babylon 5") on scriptwriting
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut minds pring dawt cahm (y'all)

I am in New Jersey. Propagation from Colorado to here is probably similar to
Virginia.
This morning, Tues, 10/9, I listened to WWV on 10 MHz with the 4 antennas I
have at my disposal to see what kind of signal level I get.
My antennas are 80 meter and 40 meter dipoles, a 20 meter yagi and a 30 meter
dipole, all at about 50 feet.
On the first 3 antennas WWV runs about S6-9, and on the 30 meter dipole it is
10-20 db over 9.
This evening, 6 pm, the first 3 antennas haul WWV in at S9 and the 30 m
dipole has it at a rock solid 30 over.
So I agree with the advice you got to string up some kind of dipole and throw
out that loop, there is plenty of signal, you just have to go get it.

Rick K2XT

PS may I throw in a little commercial for my pet peeve? As you read this did
you notice that I did not include any text from previous posts? Did you miss
it?

On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:22:07 GMT, (Rick) wrote:

PS may I throw in a little commercial for my pet peeve? As you read this did
you notice that I did not include any text from previous posts? Did you miss
it?

No, but someone reading the message from an archive at some later date
may be puzzled what you are commenting on.

My understanding is to include the portion of the message that you are
replying to (as I have done here) so some other person - who may not
have been following the thread - can better stand your comments.

73,
Danny, K6MHE

My understanding is to include the portion of the message that you are
replying to (as I have done here)

Danny, perfection. Absolute perfection.
You de Man.

Rick

Rick wrote:
I am in New Jersey. Propagation from Colorado to here is probably similar to
Virginia.
This morning, Tues, 10/9, I listened to WWV on 10 MHz with the 4 antennas I
have at my disposal to see what kind of signal level I get.
My antennas are 80 meter and 40 meter dipoles, a 20 meter yagi and a 30 meter
dipole, all at about 50 feet.
On the first 3 antennas WWV runs about S6-9, and on the 30 meter dipole it is
10-20 db over 9.
This evening, 6 pm, the first 3 antennas haul WWV in at S9 and the 30 m
dipole has it at a rock solid 30 over.
So I agree with the advice you got to string up some kind of dipole and throw
out that loop, there is plenty of signal, you just have to go get it.

Rick K2XT

PS may I throw in a little commercial for my pet peeve? As you read this did
you notice that I did not include any text from previous posts? Did you miss
it?




-----------


Some of us include the previous post's text because we can't remember
what we're answering unless we can refer to it while writing.

You too will grow old someday, if you live so long. G


Ed Cregger, NM2K

Rick wrote:
I am in New Jersey. Propagation from Colorado to here is probably similar to
Virginia.
This morning, Tues, 10/9, I listened to WWV on 10 MHz with the 4 antennas I
have at my disposal to see what kind of signal level I get.
My antennas are 80 meter and 40 meter dipoles, a 20 meter yagi and a 30 meter
dipole, all at about 50 feet.
On the first 3 antennas WWV runs about S6-9, and on the 30 meter dipole it is
10-20 db over 9.
This evening, 6 pm, the first 3 antennas haul WWV in at S9 and the 30 m
dipole has it at a rock solid 30 over.
So I agree with the advice you got to string up some kind of dipole and throw
out that loop, there is plenty of signal, you just have to go get it.

Rick K2XT

PS may I throw in a little commercial for my pet peeve? As you read this did
you notice that I did not include any text from previous posts? Did you miss
it?




-----------


Some of us include the previous post's text because we can't remember
what we're answering unless we can refer to it while writing.

You too will grow old someday, if you live so long. G


Ed Cregger, NM2K

Ed Cregger wrote:
You too will grow old someday, ...

.... and forget to click the send button only once? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

G

New computer, new software and fasciculations. What a combo!

Ed, NM2K


"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Ed Cregger wrote:
You too will grow old someday, ...

... and forget to click the send button only once? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com