Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
Mark Keith wrote:
You are causing more confusion than anything, because you don't
properly apply the antennas to their proper jobs/paths. You never saw
good results with yours because you misapplied it by using it for
short paths, and also stunted it's performance by using too few
radials. It never had a chance.

I didn't say anything about my vertical, Mark. I merely quoted The
ARRL Antenna Book and EZNEC results. Your (biased) argument is with
them, not with me.

I guess so then. I know that applying that info to the real world will
not really pan out on longer low band paths despite what models might
say about gain at a certain lower angle. It's below 10 degrees or so
that really counts to long dx.
Biased? Maybe so. But at least I've actually used a good full sized
elevated vertical to be able to make an accurate opinion. Over a three
or four year time span I might add. It's not like I'm speculating or
just barking at the moon. I made nightly comparisons. I nearly wore my
antenna switch out switching back and forth. When on a long path at
1500 miles or farther, not a single time was the vertical "in my case
elevated ground plane" ever beat by the dipole I had at 36 ft. Not
one. Nada. Zip. And at that 1500 mile mark to CA., the vertical was
always 2 S units better. Always! Of course, you have fading where the
peaks of each polarization swap back and forth, but the peaks of the
vertical were always 2 s units stronger than the peaks of the
horizontal dipole. And this was reciprical. I didn't have to get on
the air reports to see which antenna was better to a certain place.
Yep, I guess you could call me biased...I'd even take this farther and
speculate that the dipole even at a half wave "65 ft on 40m" would
have trouble beating the elevated vertical I had on long paths. After
all, it's going to have to come up an average of 4 S units "average
report given to me over the 36 ft dipole" to a long DX haul site to do
it. "IE: TX to VK land". Do you think raising the dipole from 36 ft to
65 ft will give me 4 more S units to VK land? Maybe, but I really
doubt it myself. W8JI's tests of high 160m dipoles, vs tower
verticals tends to back me up on this. Tom once said he thought a
high 160m dipole would surely tromp over the verticals and he put one
up. I think modeling told him it would be better. But it didn't pan
out. I seem to recall him saying it was a waste of time and tower
space.. Or something along those lines...If I add to add anything for
the benefit of the original poster, it would be to consider the path
length, when deciding which to use. If he doesn't work dx, he probably
doesn't want a vertical. He'd be better off with a dipole array. If he
does, he oughta try one. If it's a good vertical, he'll like it. My
dipole is so lame compared to my GP on 40m late at night, I actually
quit getting on the air at night after I took it down. Instantly
dropping 4 s units to VK land is no fun. I still have the antenna on
the side of the house though, if I ever feel the need to brown the
food over there. The guys running bobtail curtains, "basically a
vertical phased array" did even better than I did. They were the only
ones that could beat me consistantly every night.
And they were mounted on the ground to boot, compared to my GP at 36
ft.
There is power in the number of elements... MK