Gene Fuller wrote:
A direct quote from AN-95-1, the slide version, is:

Two-port, three-port, and n-port models simplify the input / output
response of active and passive devices and circuits into "black boxes"
described by a set of four linear parameters.

Thank you, Gene. That contradicts what you said before
about the black box not being allowed to have two of
the four terminals on the other side. Play silly games
with the facts and you tend to get caught.

If you deny the legitimacy of "black boxes" do you need to give up the
use of s-parameters?

No, you need to give up your assertion that a four-
terminal black box doesn't have two terminals on
the other side. Your black box and HP's are two
entirely different concepts.

HP puts a black box around a 4-terminal network to
enhance understanding of the contents of the black
box. You put a black box around a stub to promote
ignorance of the contents of the black box.

I have said before. Specify that the black boxes be
supplied with the four measured s-parameters stamped
on them and I can probably tell you which box is which
without even applying a signal.

Or, more logically, forget the black box entirely since
it is totally irrelevant to the subject being discussed.

Exactly what is it that you think you have proved by
using black boxes. Please be specific.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:
Gene Fuller wrote:
A direct quote from AN-95-1, the slide version, is:

Two-port, three-port, and n-port models simplify the input / output
response of active and passive devices and circuits into "black boxes"
described by a set of four linear parameters.

Thank you, Gene. That contradicts what you said before
about the black box not being allowed to have two of
the four terminals on the other side. Play silly games
with the facts and you tend to get caught.

If you deny the legitimacy of "black boxes" do you need to give up the
use of s-parameters?

No, you need to give up your assertion that a four-
terminal black box doesn't have two terminals on
the other side. Your black box and HP's are two
entirely different concepts.

HP puts a black box around a 4-terminal network to
enhance understanding of the contents of the black
box. You put a black box around a stub to promote
ignorance of the contents of the black box.

I have said before. Specify that the black boxes be
supplied with the four measured s-parameters stamped
on them and I can probably tell you which box is which
without even applying a signal.

Or, more logically, forget the black box entirely since
it is totally irrelevant to the subject being discussed.

Exactly what is it that you think you have proved by
using black boxes. Please be specific.

I said no such thing about "black boxes" being unable to have more than
two terminals. What I said is that the "black boxes" defined by Keith
and Roy have only two terminals.

If you want to drift off into some other irrelevant chatter, go right
ahead. It might make you feel good, but it won't change the real world.

Gene Fuller wrote:
I said no such thing about "black boxes" being unable to have more than
two terminals. What I said is that the "black boxes" defined by Keith
and Roy have only two terminals.

But the "black boxes" defined by me have either two
terminals or four terminals. Here they are again:

--43.4 deg 600 ohm line--+--10 deg 100 ohm line--open

--43.4 deg 600 ohm line--+--46.6 deg 600 ohm line--open

--43.4 deg 600 ohm line--+--j567 impedor

The black boxes are drawn around the '+' point just as
I said before. That makes the first two examples four-
terminal networks and the last example a two-terminal
network.

Now tell us again how s11, s12, s21, and s22 are identical
for those three black boxes.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Gene Fuller wrote:
If you want to drift off into some other irrelevant chatter, go right
ahead. It might make you feel good, but it won't change the real world.

As if imaginary black boxes exist in the real world. :-)
Get real, Gene. Any black box you provide, I can open.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com