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#61
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
On Feb 5, 2:41*pm, Cecil Moore wrote:
Keith Dysart wrote: How does this reflected wave of 6.25 W affect the already present forward wave of 25 W when it arrives back at the generator. It affects it not one iota. The forward power remains the same, the forward voltage remains the same and the forward current remains the same. This is the meaning of no reflection. Maybe a more drastic example will help. * * * * * * Rs * * * Vg * * * * * * * * * * Vl * * * *+----/\/\/-----+----------------------+ * * * *| * *50 ohm * * * * * * * * * * * * * | * * * *| * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * / * * * Vs * * * * * * * * 90 degrees * * * * *\ * Rl * *100 cos(wt) * * * * * 50 ohm line * * * * / *1 ohm * * * *| * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * \ *load * * * *| * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * | * * * *+--------------+----------------------+ * * * gnd Current through the source: Is = 0.0392 cos(wt). The source is supplying 1.96 watts. That is all the power available to the entire system. You say the forward power is 25 watts and that none of the reflected power is reflected at the source. How can there be 25 watts of forward power when the source is supplying only 1.96 watts and none of the reflected energy is joining the forward wave? The answer would be clear to you if you were to complete the analysis. Please compute: Pfor Pref Vfor Vref at the point Vg, both before and after the reflected wave makes it back to the point Vg. When you find (as you will), that Pfor and Vfor do not change when the reflected wave returns, it should be difficult to assert that the reflected wave is re-reflected at Vg. If the reflected wave was re-reflected at Vg, there would necessarily be a change to Vfor and Pfor. ...Keith |
#62
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
Keith Dysart wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: How can there be 25 watts of forward power when the source is supplying only 1.96 watts and none of the reflected energy is joining the forward wave? The answer would be clear to you if you were to complete the analysis. Please don't ignore the question. How does a 1.96 watt source support a forward power of 25 watts without reflected energy joining the forward energy? -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
#63
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
Keith Dysart wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: Rs Vg Pfor--25w Vl +----/\/\/-----+----------------------+ | 50 ohm ~23w--Pref | | 0.04w / 1.92w Vs 90 degrees \ Rl 100 cos(wt) 1.96w 50 ohm line / 1 ohm | \ load | | +--------------+----------------------+ gnd When you find (as you will), that Pfor and Vfor do not change when the reflected wave returns, it should be difficult to assert that the reflected wave is re-reflected at Vg. Not difficult at all. I've added the powers to the diagram above. The reflected power is ~23 watts. The power dissipated in the source resistor is ~0.04 watts. The reflected power is obviously *NOT* being dissipated in the source resistor so where is it going instead? The answer is destructive interference at the source resistor is redistributing the reflected energy back toward the load as an equal magnitude of constructive interference. I call that a reflection. The redistribution of energy due to interference is a well known and well understood phenomenon in optical physics but has been virtually ignored in the field of RF engineering. It is not a conventional reflection. It is wave cancellation in action. It is obeying the following equation: Ptot = P1 + P2 - 2*SQRT(P1*P2) where -2*SQRT(P1*P2) is the destructive interference term. If the reflected wave was re-reflected at Vg, there would necessarily be a change to Vfor and Pfor. Nope, not true. The phase angle between the voltages determines which direction the energy flows. If the above example is changed to 1/2WL instead of 1/4WL, the forward and reflected voltages and powers remain the same but the interference at the source resistor changes from destructive to constructive and the source resistor heats up. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
#64
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
Cecil Moore wrote:
Keith Dysart wrote: Cecil Moore wrote: Rs Vg Pfor--25w Vl +----/\/\/-----+----------------------+ | 50 ohm ~23w--Pref | | 0.04w / 1.92w Vs 90 degrees \ Rl 100 cos(wt) 1.96w 50 ohm line / 1 ohm | \ load | | +--------------+----------------------+ gnd When you find (as you will), that Pfor and Vfor do not change when the reflected wave returns, it should be difficult to assert that the reflected wave is re-reflected at Vg. Not difficult at all. I've added the powers to the diagram above. The reflected power is ~23 watts. The power dissipated in the source resistor is ~0.04 watts. The reflected power is obviously *NOT* being dissipated in the source resistor so where is it going instead? The answer is destructive interference at the source resistor is redistributing the reflected energy back toward the load as an equal magnitude of constructive interference. I call that a reflection. The redistribution of energy due to interference is a well known and well understood phenomenon in optical physics but has been virtually ignored in the field of RF engineering. It is not a conventional reflection. It is wave cancellation in action. It is obeying the following equation: Ptot = P1 + P2 - 2*SQRT(P1*P2) where -2*SQRT(P1*P2) is the destructive interference term. Is this the total applied power or the remaining power (Prem)(which is really the reflected power), where Prem = Z0(If - Ir)^2 = Z0((If^2) +(Ir^2) - 2(If*Ir)) I think these (yours and mine) are both the same equation except that I changed the terms so that we could use it on a transmission line. Z0 is transmission line impedance, If is forward current, Ir is reflected current Just to clarify, 2*SQRT(P1*P2) = 2*SQRT((Z*I1^2)*(Z*I2^2) = 2*Z(I1*I2) The equation should apply at all locations on the transmission line. If the reflected wave was re-reflected at Vg, there would necessarily be a change to Vfor and Pfor. Nope, not true. The phase angle between the voltages determines which direction the energy flows. If the above example is changed to 1/2WL instead of 1/4WL, the forward and reflected voltages and powers remain the same but the interference at the source resistor changes from destructive to constructive and the source resistor heats up. 73, Roger, W7WKB |
#65
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
Roger Sparks wrote:
The equation should apply at all locations on the transmission line. What you say is true but there is a caveat. Remember that I have previously said that interference can exist without wave cancellation. As long as Z0 remains constant up and down a transmission line, there is no forward and reflected wave interaction. They pass each other like "ships in the night". The resistor is a physical object. When the forward and reflected waves superpose at the *resistor*, there is an obvious interaction, i.e., a permanent interference. One only has to observe the power dissipated in the resistor to ascertain that it is not the same as the forward power plus the reflected power unless the E-fields of the two waves are 90 degrees apart, a condition for which zero interference exists. What is interesting is a procedure for determining the current through Rs using only powers. We have to be pretty accurate with the powers to do that. We know the forward power is 25w. The power reflection coefficient at the load is [(50-1)/(50+1)]^2 = 0.92311. That makes the reflected power from the load equal to 23.077 watts. When the forward wave and reflected wave superpose at the 50 ohm source resistor, they are 180 degrees out of phase which makes the interference term minus and therefore destructive. 25w + 23.077w - 2*SQRT(25w*23.077w) = 0.03845w That's the dissipation in the 50 ohm source resistor. So the RMS current is SQRT(0.03845w/50ohm)= 0.02773a Ig(t) = 1.414(0.02773)cos(wt) = 0.039216 cos(wt) And that is, indeed, the current through the 50 ohm source resistor, Rs, using only an energy analysis. All energy, except 0.03845w, is "redistributed", i.e. reflected back toward the load. This is all explained in my energy analysis article at: http://www.w5dxp.com/energy.htm -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
#66
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
. net... Roger Sparks wrote: The equation should apply at all locations on the transmission line. What you say is true but there is a caveat. Remember that I have previously said that interference can exist without wave cancellation. As long as Z0 remains constant up and down a transmission line, there is no forward and reflected wave interaction. They pass each other like "ships in the night". The resistor is a physical object. When the forward and reflected waves superpose at the *resistor*, there is an obvious interaction, i.e., a permanent interference. One only has to observe the power dissipated in the resistor to ascertain that it is not the same as the forward power plus the reflected power unless the E-fields of the two waves are 90 degrees apart, a condition for which zero interference exists. What is interesting is a procedure for determining the current through Rs using only powers. We have to be pretty accurate with the powers to do that. We know the forward power is 25w. The power reflection coefficient at the load is [(50-1)/(50+1)]^2 = 0.92311. That makes the reflected power from the load equal to 23.077 watts. When the forward wave and reflected wave superpose at the 50 ohm source resistor, they are 180 degrees out of phase which makes the interference term minus and therefore destructive. 25w + 23.077w - 2*SQRT(25w*23.077w) = 0.03845w That's the dissipation in the 50 ohm source resistor. So the RMS current is SQRT(0.03845w/50ohm)= 0.02773a Ig(t) = 1.414(0.02773)cos(wt) = 0.039216 cos(wt) And that is, indeed, the current through the 50 ohm source resistor, Rs, using only an energy analysis. All energy, except 0.03845w, is "redistributed", i.e. reflected back toward the load. This is all explained in my energy analysis article at: http://www.w5dxp.com/energy.htm -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com I disagree. If the current through the 50 ohm source resistor is 0.039216, then the power in the 50 ohm source resistor cannot be 0.03845w. Namely because 0.039216 * 0.039216 * 50 = 0.076895w (eye-squared-are, matey). Either your power is wrong or your current is wrong. My own calculations show that your current is correct. Therefore, your energy analysis appears to be in error. John |
#67
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
John KD5YI wrote:
I disagree. If the current through the 50 ohm source resistor is 0.039216, then the power in the 50 ohm source resistor cannot be 0.03845w. Namely because 0.039216 * 0.039216 * 50 = 0.076895w (eye-squared-are, matey). Either your power is wrong or your current is wrong. My own calculations show that your current is correct. Therefore, your energy analysis appears to be in error. You seem to have forgotten that since 0.039216 is the maximum value of current you need to divide the 0.076895w by two. 0.076895w/2 = 0.03845 watts If we used the RMS value of the current, i.e. 0.039216/1.414 equals 0.027734a, then 50(0.027734)^2 = 0.03845 watts and all is well. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
#68
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
On Feb 6, 8:02*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Keith Dysart wrote: Cecil Moore wrote: * * * * * * Rs * * * Vg * Pfor--25w * * * * Vl * * * *+----/\/\/-----+----------------------+ * * * *| * *50 ohm * * * ~23w--Pref * * * * | * * * *| * *0.04w * * * * * * * * * * * * * */ *1.92w * * * Vs * * * * * * * * 90 degrees * * * * *\ * Rl * *100 cos(wt) 1.96w * * 50 ohm line * * * * / *1 ohm * * * *| * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * \ *load * * * *| * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * | * * * *+--------------+----------------------+ * * * gnd When you find (as you will), that Pfor and Vfor do not change when the reflected wave returns, it should be difficult to assert that the reflected wave is re-reflected at Vg. Not difficult at all. I've added the powers to the diagram above. The reflected power is ~23 watts. The power dissipated in the source resistor is ~0.04 watts. The reflected power is obviously *NOT* being dissipated in the source resistor so where is it going instead? The answer is destructive interference at the source resistor is redistributing the reflected energy back toward the load as an equal magnitude of constructive interference. I call that a reflection. When we analyze this circuit we find that there is no voltage re-reflection when the wave gets back to the generator. This is clear because Vf does not change, which it would have to do if any of Vr was re-reflected. And yet it appears that you are claiming that power is reflected at the generator. How can power be reflected if voltage is not? You may find the Excel spreadsheet on this page http://keith.dysart.googlepages.com/...oad,reflection interesting. It computes the various results for the circuit we have been discussing. Input Vs, Rs, Rl and line length and it will compute the various voltages, currents and powers. After entering the circuit parameters, click "First". The circuit conditions at the end of the first round trip will be computed. Click "Next" to have any re-reflection included into the forward conditions for the next round trip. When Rs is 50 ohms (i.e. it matches the line impedance), the circuit conditions settle to their final state immediately, as would be expected when there is no reflection at the generator. Change Rs to a value other than 50 and it takes many clicks of "Next" before the conditions settle. At each click, Vf changes as some of Vr is re-reflected and added to Vf. ...Keith |
#69
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
"Cecil Moore" wrote in message ... John KD5YI wrote: I disagree. If the current through the 50 ohm source resistor is 0.039216, then the power in the 50 ohm source resistor cannot be 0.03845w. Namely because 0.039216 * 0.039216 * 50 = 0.076895w (eye-squared-are, matey). Either your power is wrong or your current is wrong. My own calculations show that your current is correct. Therefore, your energy analysis appears to be in error. You seem to have forgotten that since 0.039216 is the maximum value of current you need to divide the 0.076895w by two. Yes, I forgot to use the RMS value of the source. John |
#70
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Derivation of Reflection Coefficient vs SWR
Keith Dysart wrote:
When we analyze this circuit we find that there is no voltage re-reflection when the wave gets back to the generator. This is clear because Vf does not change, which it would have to do if any of Vr was re-reflected. Nope, Vf doesn't have to change for there to be a reflection. Looking at what happens to the power dissipation in the source resistor, Rs, when the reflected wave arrives, we see that the energy being supplied by the source drops by 99.85%. Most of the energy in the forward wave is supplied by the reflected wave, starting at the time the reflected wave arrives and causes destructive interference. And yet it appears that you are claiming that power is reflected at the generator. How can power be reflected if voltage is not? To be technically correct, reflected energy is redistributed back toward the load during the process of destructive interference. The conditions before the reflected wave arrives and after the reflected wave arrives are extremely different. Before the reflected wave arrives, the source resistor, Rs, is dissipating 25 watts. After the reflected wave arrives, the source resistor, Rs, is dissipating 0.03845 watts. Clearly, something drastic has happened and that is: 99.85% of the forward energy originally supplied by the source has been replaced with reflected energy being redistributed back toward the load. Because of destructive interference, reflected energy *never* flows through the source resistor, Rs, and is instead redistributed back toward the load. Nothing else is possible since the source is supplying only 1.9608 watts during steady-state. 92.3% of the forward power is not being supplied by the source during steady-state. The energy incident upon a point must equal the energy exiting the point. The energy incident upon the generator terminals is 1.92234 joules/sec from the source and 23.0777 joules/sec from the reflected wave. The energy exiting that point is 25 joules/sec. The reflected wave energy obviously reverses direction and joins the forward wave and that is what we call a "reflection". -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
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