MFJ-259Z
 

I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0 Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can some
one please advise me how to check it?

Thanks

MFJ-259Z
 

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has
been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0
Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but
doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can
some
one please advise me how to check it?

Thanks

Make sure the batteries are in the correct positions!

MFJ-259Z
 

Barrett wrote:
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0 Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can some
one please advise me how to check it?

I just did a search of the MFJ web page and it said
"No Items Found!" for an MFJ-259Z.

My MFJ-259B has a jumper for standard vs rechargeable
batteries. Perhaps your jumper in in the standard
battery position rather than in the rechargeable
position?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

MFJ-259Z
 

Cecil Moore wrote:
My MFJ-259B has a jumper for standard vs rechargeable
batteries. Perhaps your jumper in in the standard
battery position rather than in the rechargeable
position?

Actually, it is a "charger on" or "charger off"
jumper.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

MFJ-259Z
 

The 2600 NiMH rechargeable batteries that came with MFJ-259Z are all reading
0 Volts and will not charge in the MFJ-259Z or in my smart charger. I
thought that these types of batteries are not effected by discharge memory
and yet these seem to be effected by it.

Is there anything I can do to get them working again?

The unit only arrived yesterday from W&S. Its taken long enough for it to
arrive with out having to send it back and wait for a replacement from them.
It also showed a nice silver shinny coupling antenna attachment in the
picture and it came with what looks like an old bent piece of enamelled
copper wire bent into a loop that is soldered to a PL259. A bit
disappointing really for the money.

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has
been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0
Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but
doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can
some
one please advise me how to check it?

Thanks

MFJ-259Z
 

The jumper is on in the unit and all the batteries are in there correct
position. The link for the MFJ-259Z on the W&S site is
http://www.wsplc.com/cgi-bin/ss00000...=14&ACTION.y=3

They won't even charge in my Smart charger. They just shut down the charging
as if there no good, but they are supposed to be brand new. Just borrowed
some 1800mA and these are charging fine in the MFJ-259, so it looks like the
problem is with the batteries. I have never experienced this with these type
of batteries before only NiCad's.



"Barrett" wrote in message
...
The 2600 NiMH rechargeable batteries that came with MFJ-259Z are all
reading 0 Volts and will not charge in the MFJ-259Z or in my smart
charger. I thought that these types of batteries are not effected by
discharge memory and yet these seem to be effected by it.

Is there anything I can do to get them working again?

The unit only arrived yesterday from W&S. Its taken long enough for it to
arrive with out having to send it back and wait for a replacement from
them. It also showed a nice silver shinny coupling antenna attachment in
the picture and it came with what looks like an old bent piece of
enamelled copper wire bent into a loop that is soldered to a PL259. A bit
disappointing really for the money.

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has
been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0
Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but
doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can
some
one please advise me how to check it?

Thanks

MFJ-259Z
 

Barrett wrote:
The jumper is on in the unit and all the batteries are in there correct
position. The link for the MFJ-259Z on the W&S site is
http://www.wsplc.com/cgi-bin/ss00000...=14&ACTION.y=3

Is this an MFJ product?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

MFJ-259Z
 

Yes it is. Just looked at the box and it says MFJ-259Z but the front of
meter says MFJ-259B. I don't understand this at all.

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Barrett wrote:
The jumper is on in the unit and all the batteries are in there correct
position. The link for the MFJ-259Z on the W&S site is
http://www.wsplc.com/cgi-bin/ss00000...=14&ACTION.y=3

Is this an MFJ product?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

MFJ-259Z
 

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
Yes it is. Just looked at the box and it says MFJ-259Z but the front of
meter says MFJ-259B. I don't understand this at all.

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Barrett wrote:
The jumper is on in the unit and all the batteries are in there correct
position. The link for the MFJ-259Z on the W&S site is
http://www.wsplc.com/cgi-bin/ss00000...=14&ACTION.y=3

Is this an MFJ product?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

A quick Google search shows a few sales outlets, but the MFJ company didn't
show up when searching MFJ-259Z.
I suspect an after market modification by someone.
This site has a letter from someone else having a charging problem with the
MFL-259Z. See the second letter.
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/13
Mike

MFJ-259Z
 

I borrowed some 1800mA and these are charging fine in the MFJ-259, so it
looks like the
problem is with the batteries. I have never experienced this with these type
of batteries before only NiCad's.

"amdx" wrote in message
...

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
Yes it is. Just looked at the box and it says MFJ-259Z but the front of
meter says MFJ-259B. I don't understand this at all.

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Barrett wrote:
The jumper is on in the unit and all the batteries are in there
correct position. The link for the MFJ-259Z on the W&S site is
http://www.wsplc.com/cgi-bin/ss00000...=14&ACTION.y=3

Is this an MFJ product?
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

A quick Google search shows a few sales outlets, but the MFJ company
didn't show up when searching MFJ-259Z.
I suspect an after market modification by someone.
This site has a letter from someone else having a charging problem with
the MFL-259Z. See the second letter.
http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/13
Mike

MFJ-259Z
 

I borrowed some 1800mA and these are charging fine in the MFJ-259, so it
looks like the
problem is with the batteries. I have never experienced this with these type
of batteries before only NiCad's.

What brand and type are the batteries that don't work?

It's possible that you simply received a bunch of batteries that are
completely defective (open) or are counterfeit dummies. Seems a bit
implausible.

Another possibilty is that the 2600 mAh cells are actually OK, but
were delivered to you in a completely-run-down state. That seems
plausible... the manufacturer may not have precharged them, or they
may have self-discharged in storage after manufacture. The older type
of NiMH cells do have a relatively high self-discharge rate, and can
go flat after as little as three or four months of storage.

If the batteries read 0 volts, then it's possible that a smart-charger
might fail to detect their presence and start charging... I believe
that some of the newer NiMH-aware charge-control ICs depend on the
detection of _some_ voltage from the cell to detect the cell and start
the charge.

Try sticking a few of the cells into an old-style "dumb and slow" NiCd
battery charger for a few hours. These are usually fixed-current
chargers (100 mA or so) with no battery-detect or charge-cutoff
circuits, so they're not a good choice for general use with NiMH
cells. They _will_ feed some charge into the cells if the cells
aren't entirely open, and should bring the cells up to 1.0 volts or
better fairly quickly. After 2-3 hours, take the cells out of the
dumb charger, check the open-circuit voltage, and put them in your
smart-charger, and see if they are accepted and begin charging. If
so, they may be OK. If not, they're probably defective or bogus and
you may want to return them to the seller for a refund.

Since an MFJ analyzer is the sort of device that tends to sit around
unused for weeks at a time, I think that high-capacity high-self-
discharge NiMH cells (e.g. most 2500 or above) are a poor choice.
Unless you recharge for an hour or so once a week, you'll probably find
them weak or dead when you want use the analyzer.

High-capacity NiCd cells are the traditional choice for this sort of
application (and are what I use in my own MFJ). Another possibility
is the newer low-self-discharge NiMH cells, such as the Imedions,
Eneloops, Hybrios, and Hybrids. These are typically 2000-2100 mAh,
and will hold the majority of their charge for a year or more. If
your MFJ has been modified to charge NiMH properly (e.g. with a good
temperature or zero-delta-V cutoff circuit) they might be a good choice.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

MFJ-259Z
 

Dave Platt wrote:
High-capacity NiCd cells are the traditional choice for this sort of
application

I have been most happy with a small gelcell velcroed
to my MJF-259B.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

MFJ-259Z
 

Dave, the batteries are called Supreme Power 2600mA standard charge 14-16 HRS x 260mA, quick charge 4-6 HRS x 550mA. REG USA Made in China.

I am waiting for a friend to bring by his old NiCad charger and I will give it ago. I will let you know how I got on.

For future reference would you have an idea on how long I should charge the batteries for using the MFJ?

I don't know who or how the charger circuit has been modified. I could ask W&S what sort of circuit has been used.



"Dave Platt" wrote in message ...
I borrowed some 1800mA and these are charging fine in the MFJ-259, so it
looks like the
problem is with the batteries. I have never experienced this with these type
of batteries before only NiCad's.

What brand and type are the batteries that don't work?

It's possible that you simply received a bunch of batteries that are
completely defective (open) or are counterfeit dummies. Seems a bit
implausible.

Another possibilty is that the 2600 mAh cells are actually OK, but
were delivered to you in a completely-run-down state. That seems
plausible... the manufacturer may not have precharged them, or they
may have self-discharged in storage after manufacture. The older type
of NiMH cells do have a relatively high self-discharge rate, and can
go flat after as little as three or four months of storage.

If the batteries read 0 volts, then it's possible that a smart-charger
might fail to detect their presence and start charging... I believe
that some of the newer NiMH-aware charge-control ICs depend on the
detection of _some_ voltage from the cell to detect the cell and start
the charge.

Try sticking a few of the cells into an old-style "dumb and slow" NiCd
battery charger for a few hours. These are usually fixed-current
chargers (100 mA or so) with no battery-detect or charge-cutoff
circuits, so they're not a good choice for general use with NiMH
cells. They _will_ feed some charge into the cells if the cells
aren't entirely open, and should bring the cells up to 1.0 volts or
better fairly quickly. After 2-3 hours, take the cells out of the
dumb charger, check the open-circuit voltage, and put them in your
smart-charger, and see if they are accepted and begin charging. If
so, they may be OK. If not, they're probably defective or bogus and
you may want to return them to the seller for a refund.

Since an MFJ analyzer is the sort of device that tends to sit around
unused for weeks at a time, I think that high-capacity high-self-
discharge NiMH cells (e.g. most 2500 or above) are a poor choice.
Unless you recharge for an hour or so once a week, you'll probably find
them weak or dead when you want use the analyzer.

High-capacity NiCd cells are the traditional choice for this sort of
application (and are what I use in my own MFJ). Another possibility
is the newer low-self-discharge NiMH cells, such as the Imedions,
Eneloops, Hybrios, and Hybrids. These are typically 2000-2100 mAh,
and will hold the majority of their charge for a year or more. If
your MFJ has been modified to charge NiMH properly (e.g. with a good
temperature or zero-delta-V cutoff circuit) they might be a good choice.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

MFJ-259Z
 

Cecil Moore writes:

Dave Platt wrote:
High-capacity NiCd cells are the traditional choice for this sort of
application

I have been most happy with a small gelcell velcroed
to my MJF-259B.

I've had mine for four years, and am still on my first set of
disposable batteries. Just have to make sure it doesn't turn on
accidentally under transport - I wrap some tape over one of the
batteries.

LA4RT Jon

MFJ-259Z
 

Dave, the batteries are called Supreme Power 2600mA standard charge
14-16 HRS x 260mA, quick charge 4-6 HRS x 550mA. REG USA Made in China.

Hmmm. I see various web sites offering that brand, but I don't see
much in the way of comments about their quality (good or bad).

I am waiting for a friend to bring by his old NiCad charger and I will
give it ago. I will let you know how I got on.

Please do - I'm curious.

For future reference would you have an idea on how long I should charge
the batteries for using the MFJ?

Depends on the charger. In general, a fully-discharged NiMH cell will
need to be "fed" somewhere around 150% of its rated capacity in order
to reach full charge - some of the energy fed into it is dissipated as
heat and doesn't go into rebuilding the electrochemistry. The
"standard charge" recommendations you quoted are feeding the battery
at a rate of .1C (10% of its capacity per hour) for 14-16 hours, so
that's just about right.

If you're using a different charger, you'd need to determine the
amount of current being fed to each cell, divide that into the cell's
rated capacity (to get the time required for 100% capacity delivery),
and then add around 40-50%.

These calculations apply *only* to cells which are fully discharged!
If a cell is partially charged when you start to recharge it, it'll
reach full charge sooner than these calculations indicate... and at
that point the cell starts to heat up pretty rapidly.

Most of the NiMH technology sheets I've read, seem to recommend
charging these batteries at a relatively fast rate (no less than .2C,
with .5C and 1C being common) and using a temperature sensor as the
primary means of figuring out when to turn off the charge.
Zero-delta-V is often used as a secondary method, with a timer being
the final fallback.

I don't know who or how the charger circuit has been modified. I could
ask W&S what sort of circuit has been used.

That would be a good idea!

The 259/269 have a simple slow/trickle-charge circuit built in... it's
OK for NiCd cells but isn't ideal for NiMH. It would be very
interesting to know how this was modified for NiMH in the 259Z model.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

MFJ-259Z
 

On Apr 2, 6:08*pm, (Dave Platt) wrote:
Dave, the batteries are called Supreme Power 2600mA standard charge
14-16 HRS x 260mA, quick charge 4-6 HRS x 550mA. REG USA Made in China.

Hmmm. *I see various web sites offering that brand, but I don't see
much in the way of comments about their quality (good or bad).

I am waiting for a friend to bring by his old NiCad charger and I will
give it ago. I will let you know how I got on.

Please do - I'm curious.

For future reference would you have an idea on how long I should charge
the batteries for using the MFJ?

Depends on the charger. *In general, a fully-discharged NiMH cell will
need to be "fed" somewhere around 150% of its rated capacity in order
to reach full charge - some of the energy fed into it is dissipated as
heat and doesn't go into rebuilding the electrochemistry. *The
"standard charge" recommendations you quoted are feeding the battery
at a rate of .1C (10% of its capacity per hour) for 14-16 hours, so
that's just about right.

If you're using a different charger, you'd need to determine the
amount of current being fed to each cell, divide that into the cell's
rated capacity (to get the time required for 100% capacity delivery),
and then add around 40-50%.

These calculations apply *only* to cells which are fully discharged!
If a cell is partially charged when you start to recharge it, it'll
reach full charge sooner than these calculations indicate... and at
that point the cell starts to heat up pretty rapidly.

Most of the NiMH technology sheets I've read, seem to recommend
charging these batteries at a relatively fast rate (no less than .2C,
with .5C and 1C being common) and using a temperature sensor as the
primary means of figuring out when to turn off the charge.
Zero-delta-V is often used as a secondary method, with a timer being
the final fallback.

I don't know who or how the charger circuit has been modified. I could
ask W&S what sort of circuit has been used.

That would be a good idea!

The 259/269 have a simple slow/trickle-charge circuit built in... it's
OK for NiCd cells but isn't ideal for NiMH. *It would be very
interesting to know how this was modified for NiMH in the 259Z model.

--
Dave Platt * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: *http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
* I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
* * *boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

You may want to use the NiCd charger on them for a few minutes and
then move them to the NiMH charger.

Jimmie

MFJ-259Z
 

A NiMH or NiCd cell reading of zero volts usually indicates an internal
short, caused by metallic dendrite growth. If this is the problem with
the cells, they won't respond to any ordinary attempt to charge them.
It's sometimes possible to "zap" a shorted cell (by discharging a very
large capacitor into the cell) to burn out the shorts, but you end up
with a cell that has higher than normal self-discharge and a tendency to
grow shorts again. So if they don't respond to normal charging, I
recommend tossing them and getting some new cells.

If the device has a charger designed for NiMH cells, that is, one that
charges at a fairly high rate and properly detects the end of charge,
then I highly recommend one of the newer low-self discharge cells such
as the Sanyo Eneloop. If it doesn't have a proper NiMH charger and just
pumps in a constant current charge without end of charge detection, you
should use NiCd cells because they can tolerate that charge regimen much
better than NiMH cells can. I've had very good luck with Sanyo and
Panasonic NiCd cells. Don't be suckered by inflated capacity claims
which the minor brands liberally use. Even with the better brands, the
highest capacity cells have historically had more problems with overly
fast self discharge and premature cell failure.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

MFJ-259Z
 

Barrett wrote:
The jumper is on in the unit and all the batteries are in there correct
position. The link for the MFJ-259Z on the W&S site is
http://www.wsplc.com/cgi-bin/ss00000...=14&ACTION.y=3

They won't even charge in my Smart charger. They just shut down the charging
as if there no good, but they are supposed to be brand new. Just borrowed
some 1800mA and these are charging fine in the MFJ-259, so it looks like the
problem is with the batteries. I have never experienced this with these type
of batteries before only NiCad's.
=======================================
Suggest you allow a say 100 mA current to flow through the individual
(new)batteries , monitoring the voltage across the battery.
As soon as the voltage is 1.2 V you can further charge in your automatic
charger.
When fully charged , discharge either in your automatic charger or
manually (with a 12 to 15 Ohms resistor) ,down to
1Volt and recharge. The (new) batteries should then work well.

New NiMH batteries often need a few manually imposed charging
/discharging cycles before working properly.

Good Luck

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

MFJ-259Z
 

Barrett wrote:
Yes it is. Just looked at the box and it says MFJ-259Z but the front of
meter says MFJ-259B. I don't understand this at all.
=================
For a number of years I have used my MFJ259B with an external 12V
Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) battery 12V-0.8Ah or larger capacity.
I never used internal batteries.

The analyser is regularly used for training purposes (SWR graphs for the
UK Foundation Licence assessment)

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

MFJ-259Z
 

Barrett wrote:
Dave, the batteries are called Supreme Power 2600mA standard charge
14-16 HRS x 260mA, quick charge 4-6 HRS x 550mA. REG USA Made in China.

I am waiting for a friend to bring by his old NiCad charger and I will
give it ago. I will let you know how I got on.

For future reference would you have an idea on how long I should charge
the batteries for using the MFJ?

I don't know who or how the charger circuit has been modified. I could
ask W&S what sort of circuit has been used.



"Dave Platt" wrote in message
...
I borrowed some 1800mA and these are charging fine in the MFJ-259,
so it
looks like the
problem is with the batteries. I have never experienced this with
these type
of batteries before only NiCad's.

What brand and type are the batteries that don't work?

It's possible that you simply received a bunch of batteries that are
completely defective (open) or are counterfeit dummies. Seems a bit
implausible.

Another possibilty is that the 2600 mAh cells are actually OK, but
were delivered to you in a completely-run-down state. That seems
plausible... the manufacturer may not have precharged them, or they
may have self-discharged in storage after manufacture. The older type
of NiMH cells do have a relatively high self-discharge rate, and can
go flat after as little as three or four months of storage.

If the batteries read 0 volts, then it's possible that a smart-charger
might fail to detect their presence and start charging... I believe
that some of the newer NiMH-aware charge-control ICs depend on the
detection of _some_ voltage from the cell to detect the cell and start
the charge.

Try sticking a few of the cells into an old-style "dumb and slow" NiCd
battery charger for a few hours. These are usually fixed-current
chargers (100 mA or so) with no battery-detect or charge-cutoff
circuits, so they're not a good choice for general use with NiMH
cells. They _will_ feed some charge into the cells if the cells
aren't entirely open, and should bring the cells up to 1.0 volts or
better fairly quickly. After 2-3 hours, take the cells out of the
dumb charger, check the open-circuit voltage, and put them in your
smart-charger, and see if they are accepted and begin charging. If
so, they may be OK. If not, they're probably defective or bogus and
you may want to return them to the seller for a refund.

Since an MFJ analyzer is the sort of device that tends to sit around
unused for weeks at a time, I think that high-capacity high-self-
discharge NiMH cells (e.g. most 2500 or above) are a poor choice.
Unless you recharge for an hour or so once a week, you'll probably find
them weak or dead when you want use the analyzer.

High-capacity NiCd cells are the traditional choice for this sort of
application (and are what I use in my own MFJ). Another possibility
is the newer low-self-discharge NiMH cells, such as the Imedions,
Eneloops, Hybrios, and Hybrids. These are typically 2000-2100 mAh,
and will hold the majority of their charge for a year or more. If
your MFJ has been modified to charge NiMH properly (e.g. with a good
temperature or zero-delta-V cutoff circuit) they might be a good choice.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

I've had the same set of NIMH 2100 maH Energizer cells in my 259B for
over 3 years. I have had them on the internal charger 24x7, except when
in use. I have had no trouble with the batteries overcharging with the
internal charger in the 259B. (obviously, or I would have cooked them a
long time ago).

One thing I've learned about NIMH batteries...they don't sit well. They
do wonderfully if kept trickle charged, but if let to sit, they will
self-discharge in less than two weeks. (at least for digital camera
purposes)I've observed this on three different "sets" of NIMH AA
batteries. All act the same way. Two weeks of sitting and they will only
operate the camera a very short time. Left in the charger and put
directly into service I can shoot well over 75 pictures in a row with no
difficulty.

MFJ-259Z
 

In article , hasan wrote:

I've had the same set of NIMH 2100 maH Energizer cells in my 259B for
over 3 years. I have had them on the internal charger 24x7, except when
in use. I have had no trouble with the batteries overcharging with the
internal charger in the 259B. (obviously, or I would have cooked them a
long time ago).

Good to know, thanks! Possibly the trickle charge is of a low enough
rate that the cells do not overcharge much and overheat. Heat is the
enemy of service life.

According to the battery-manufacturer literature I've read, NiMH cells
tend to have poor "charge acceptance" when trickle-charged at very low
rates. If you try to charge them at a rate of, say, .01C (20 mA, for
a 2000 mAh cell), almost none of this energy actually recharges the
cell - essentially all of it turns into heat.

One manufacturer's writeup I've read says that if it's necessary to
trickle-charge the cells to combat self-discharge, it's best done
through a periodic pulse-charging technique. Pulses of current in the
range of .05C through 1C, lasting for .1 to 60 seconds, are suggested,
with the time between pulses set so that the average rate of charge
delivered is around .02C per day. This is enough to combat
self-discharge, without overcharging.

One thing I've learned about NIMH batteries...they don't sit well. They
do wonderfully if kept trickle charged, but if let to sit, they will
self-discharge in less than two weeks. (at least for digital camera
purposes)I've observed this on three different "sets" of NIMH AA
batteries. All act the same way. Two weeks of sitting and they will only
operate the camera a very short time. Left in the charger and put
directly into service I can shoot well over 75 pictures in a row with no
difficulty.

High self-discharge rates are indeed an issue with the older NiMH
formulas (which account for most of the higher-capacity cells on the
market).

There seems to be a very real tradeoff between capacity and
self-discharge rate... it's a result of the different metal-hydride
alloy formulas used.

The new-generation "ultra-low self discharge" batteries are quite a
bit better in this regard. The Sanyo Eneloops and similar types are
billed as losing no more than around 10% of their total charge after a
month of storage, and still retaining as much as 60% after a year.
The price you pay for the longer holding time, is a reduced maximum
capacity (typically 2000-2100 mAh for an AA, as opposed to 2500-2700
for the ultra-high-capacity type).

Many reports indicate that new NiMH cells, and older ones which have
been sitting around unused for some time will exhibit reduced
capacity, until they've been fully charged and discharged once or
twice.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

MFJ-259Z
 

Can some one give me an idea on how long these 2600mA should last in the
MFJ-259 when left on without turning off?

Thanks


"Highland Ham" wrote in message
...
Barrett wrote:
The jumper is on in the unit and all the batteries are in there correct
position. The link for the MFJ-259Z on the W&S site is
http://www.wsplc.com/cgi-bin/ss00000...=14&ACTION.y=3

They won't even charge in my Smart charger. They just shut down the
charging as if there no good, but they are supposed to be brand new. Just
borrowed some 1800mA and these are charging fine in the MFJ-259, so it
looks like the problem is with the batteries. I have never experienced
this with these type of batteries before only NiCad's.
=======================================
Suggest you allow a say 100 mA current to flow through the individual
(new)batteries , monitoring the voltage across the battery.
As soon as the voltage is 1.2 V you can further charge in your automatic
charger.
When fully charged , discharge either in your automatic charger or
manually (with a 12 to 15 Ohms resistor) ,down to
1Volt and recharge. The (new) batteries should then work well.

New NiMH batteries often need a few manually imposed charging
/discharging cycles before working properly.

Good Luck

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

MFJ-259Z
 

hasan wrote:

One thing I've learned about NIMH batteries...they don't sit well. They
do wonderfully if kept trickle charged, but if let to sit, they will
self-discharge in less than two weeks. (at least for digital camera
purposes)I've observed this on three different "sets" of NIMH AA
batteries. All act the same way. Two weeks of sitting and they will only
operate the camera a very short time. Left in the charger and put
directly into service I can shoot well over 75 pictures in a row with no
difficulty.

This was true until a short while ago, but no longer is. A new chemistry
is now being used for some NiMH cells which greatly reduces the
self-discharge rate. Some of the more popular brands are Sanyo's
Eneloop, Rayovac's Hybrid, and Sony's Cycle Energy, but there's a
growing number of others. A bit of web searching will bring a great deal
more information about this. "Low self discharge NiMH" is a good search
string to start with.

So far, the LSD cells have a bit lower capacity than the very highest
capacity conventional cells, with 2000 mAh typical for AA and 800 mAh
for AAA. But they have almost as much capacity after sitting for an
extended time. And the Eneloops, in particular, typically have a
slightly higher voltage under discharge, and hold up very well under
high discharge rates. They're very good cells -- I use them almost
exclusively now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

MFJ-259Z
 

In article ,
Barrett wrote:

Can some one give me an idea on how long these 2600mA should last in the
MFJ-259 when left on without turning off?

One manufacturer's data writeup (for the Twicell batteries) says "The
amount of electricity which a [NiMH] battery loses through
self-discharge at 40 degrees C in one day following full charge is
approximately 5% of the rated capacity."

If it lost this same percentage of its total charge every day, the
battery would be completely self-discharged in about three weeks.

If it lost 5% of its current charge level per day, it'd be down to 50%
charge in a couple of weeks, maybe to 25% at the end of a month.

Even if the self-discharge rate is as low as 2% per day, you'd find
them with little charge remaining after a couple of months.

The high-capacity, fast-self-discharging NiMH cells seem to be a
reasonable choice for certain application - those in which you expect
to drain 'em within a few days of use, and will need to recharge them
regularly in any case. Photo-flash applications, or listen-and-talk
applications in a portable radio, or that sort of thing.

They're a poor choice for occasional-use or standby applications.

If you're using your MFJ-259 for several hours per week, standard 2600
NiMH cells may be a good choice. If you use the analyzer only
occasionally, I think you'll be happier with either NiCd, or
low-self-discharge 2000/2100 NiMH.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

MFJ-259Z
 

If you're using your MFJ-259 for several hours per week, standard 2600
NiMH cells may be a good choice. If you use the analyzer only
occasionally, I think you'll be happier with either NiCd, or
low-self-discharge 2000/2100 NiMH.
================================================== ===
NiCad and NiMH batteries (usually having a capacity exceeding 400mAh)
which need to perform at all times I normally charge constantly with 10
mA when not in use. This trickle charge level keeps them in good condition.
I have a Wahl ISOTIP 2.4 V soldering iron which in this way is always
available. When in use I switch the charging current to 300 mA

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

MFJ-259Z
 

Finally got the batteries charged, discharged and charged again. I have
managed to fully charge them now.

How long should they last for with the MFJ-259 left on continuously being
used?

Is it normal to only get 10 - 15 minutes worth of on time before getting the
low battery warning on the MFJ?

Also the MFJ-259 is new. What is the best ways to check it to make sure its
working properly?

Thanks


"Highland Ham" wrote in message
...
If you're using your MFJ-259 for several hours per week, standard 2600
NiMH cells may be a good choice. If you use the analyzer only
occasionally, I think you'll be happier with either NiCd, or
low-self-discharge 2000/2100 NiMH.
================================================== ===
NiCad and NiMH batteries (usually having a capacity exceeding 400mAh)
which need to perform at all times I normally charge constantly with 10
mA when not in use. This trickle charge level keeps them in good
condition.
I have a Wahl ISOTIP 2.4 V soldering iron which in this way is always
available. When in use I switch the charging current to 300 mA

Frank GM0CSZ / KN6WH

MFJ-259Z
 

On Apr 2, 11:54 am, (Dave Platt) wrote:


Another possibilty is that the 2600 mAh cells are actually OK, but
were delivered to you in a completely-run-down state.

That could well be the case. I just got a new cell phone
that had batteries that had no charge whatsoever.
At first the phone would not recognize them and start
charging. I'd check the voltage and zero.
I tried manually charging a small bit with a couple
of wires from a power source to see if I could kick start
em.
I'm not sure if that did the trick, but the phone finally
noticed the batteries and started charging.
There was nothing wrong with them, as when fully
charged, they last as long or longer than any of
my others.

MFJ-259Z
 

In article ,
Barrett wrote:

Finally got the batteries charged, discharged and charged again. I have
managed to fully charge them now.

How long should they last for with the MFJ-259 left on continuously being
used?

The MFJ 269 manual says that it draws a maximum of 150 mA on HF and
VHF, and max 250 mA on UHF. Given the similarity of the instruments
I'd guess that the 259's current drain is similar to that of the 269
on HF/VHF.

This would suggest a useful run-time of around 12 hours for
fully-charged 2000 mAh cells, and perhaps 16 hours for the
larger-capacity 2500 mAh types. You'll get more time if the MFJ goes
into power-saving mode.

Is it normal to only get 10 - 15 minutes worth of on time before getting the
low battery warning on the MFJ?

If you're getting a flashing low-battery warning after only 10-15
minutes of use with freshly-charged cells - no, that's not good. It
would suggest to me that either one (or more) of the cells in the
battery stack is defective (or not fully charged) or that the MFJ's
low-battery detector is misadjusted.

Don't mistake the flashing low-battery warning, with the "display goes
mostly blank" sleep mode. The latter would be expected after some
minutes of non-use, while the former should not appear for hours.

NiCd and NiMH cells have a rather flat discharge characteristic - the
voltage remains almost the same across a broad part of the discharge
curve (from 90% charged to 10% charged). By the time that the voltage
starts to drop off, there's very little charge left in the cell, and
you have little warning.

Well-designed devices which were designed to run on NiCd batteries
will often have a low-voltage shutoff circuit, which deliberately
turns off the device once the voltage hits the "almost drained" knee
point of the curve (nominally 1.0 volts per cell or so). This is done
to avoid "over-discharging" some cells in the battery (continuing to
pull current through them after they're completely exhausted, but
while other cells in the battery still have some charge left).
Overdischarging can permanently damage a NiCd or NiMH cell.

I suggest that you try this: fully charge the cells. Put 'em in the
MFJ. Turn it on. Let it run until the low-battery warning appears.
Then, with the MFJ still turned on, use a digital voltmeter to
carefully measure the voltage appearing across each of the cells in
the battery, and across the full battery stack.

Under these conditions (fresh charge, little discharging, and a low
current drain) the stack ought to be reading at least 12 volts, and
probably more than that.

If you find a "freshly-charged" cell that is not reading at least 1.2
volts under these conditions, it's probably bad.

Also the MFJ-259 is new. What is the best ways to check it to make sure its
working properly?

Test a variety of known-value loads (e.g. 25, 50, and 100-ohm
resistors) and confirm that the MFJ's readings are not unreasonably
wrong.

Cut a length of coax of a known type, short the far end, perform the
"velocity of propagation" tests shown in the manual. Typically a coax
with a solid polyethylene dielectric will have a VOP of around 0.66,
while a foamed-poly dielectric cable will calculate out at around 0.8
or so.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

MFJ-259Z
 

Barrett wrote:
Is it normal to only get 10 - 15 minutes worth of on time before getting the
low battery warning on the MFJ?

That's exactly why I went to a gelcell for my
MFJ-259B. It will last all day.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

MFJ-259Z
 

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
Finally got the batteries charged, discharged and charged again. I have
managed to fully charge them now.

How long should they last for with the MFJ-259 left on continuously being
used?

Is it normal to only get 10 - 15 minutes worth of on time before getting
the low battery warning on the MFJ?

Also the MFJ-259 is new. What is the best ways to check it to make sure
its working properly?

Thanks

For what it'sworth, I looked at an MFJ-269 manual, and it claims to trickle
charge at 10 - 20 ma. At that rate it will take a long time to charge a 2600
maH battery. They say minimum Vbat is 11V, but mine gets flakey below 12.
You might want to measure the under load battery voltage when it fails and
when you think it is fully charged.

Tam/WB2TT

MFJ-259Z
 

Tam wrote:
For what it'sworth, I looked at an MFJ-269 manual, and it claims to
trickle charge at 10 - 20 ma. At that rate it will take a long time to
charge a 2600 maH battery. They say minimum Vbat is 11V, but mine gets
flakey below 12. You might want to measure the under load battery
voltage when it fails and when you think it is fully charged.

Tam/WB2TT

I don't think a 2600 mAh cell will ever become anywhere near fully
charged at that charge rate. That's barely enough to maintain an
existing charge.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

MFJ-259Z
 

Roy Lewallen wrote:
hasan wrote:

One thing I've learned about NIMH batteries...they don't sit well.
They do wonderfully if kept trickle charged, but if let to sit, they
will self-discharge in less than two weeks. (at least for digital
camera purposes)I've observed this on three different "sets" of NIMH
AA batteries. All act the same way. Two weeks of sitting and they will
only operate the camera a very short time. Left in the charger and put
directly into service I can shoot well over 75 pictures in a row with
no difficulty.

This was true until a short while ago, but no longer is. A new chemistry
is now being used for some NiMH cells which greatly reduces the
self-discharge rate. Some of the more popular brands are Sanyo's
Eneloop, Rayovac's Hybrid, and Sony's Cycle Energy, but there's a
growing number of others. A bit of web searching will bring a great deal
more information about this. "Low self discharge NiMH" is a good search
string to start with.

So far, the LSD cells have a bit lower capacity than the very highest
capacity conventional cells, with 2000 mAh typical for AA and 800 mAh
for AAA. But they have almost as much capacity after sitting for an
extended time. And the Eneloops, in particular, typically have a
slightly higher voltage under discharge, and hold up very well under
high discharge rates. They're very good cells -- I use them almost
exclusively now.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Can they (Eneloops) be charged in a conventional NiMH charger, or do
they require a proprietary charger?

MFJ-259Z
 

hasan wrote:

Can they (Eneloops) be charged in a conventional NiMH charger, or do
they require a proprietary charger?

They can be charged and otherwise treated the same as any other NiMH cells.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

MFJ-259Z
 

In article , hasan wrote:

Can they (Eneloops) be charged in a conventional NiMH charger, or do
they require a proprietary charger?

Sanyo's own words:

"Basically eneloop is a modern Ni-MH battery, which can be charged
like any other Ni-MH battery.

Therefore eneloop can be charged also with other, modern chargers,
which are suitable to charge Ni-MH batteries.

However, SANYO cannot accept any liability for the function or safety
of chargers made by other manufacturers.

Also SANYO cannot be held responsible for any damage to eneloop
batteries caused by unsuitable chargers."

On a different Sanyo page (http://www.eneloopusa.com/eneloop.html) they
say that they only provide warranty on the batteries if an Eneloop
or other Sanyo-branded NiMH charger is used. "Quick" chargers (those
charging in under 2 hours) should not be used, as these may reduce the
life of the battery... "2 hours or more" charging rate is recommended
(e.g. 0.5C or so).

A lot of people seem to like the various Maha chargers. One of my
friends here uses a Maha MH-C9000, which is relatively expensive
(currently $60 from Thomas Distributing) but is *extremely* flexible
and adaptable... you can select the charging and discharging rate for
each battery, perform one or more break-in or discharge/recharge
exercise cycles, etc. I have one on order and plan to try it out with
my various NiMH cells.

Seems to me that almost any modern NiMH charger, with a charge rate of
around 500 - 1000 mA per cell, and an effective full-charge cutoff
circuit (thermal and delta-V) would work fine with Eneloops and
similar low-self-discharge NiMH cells.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

MFJ-259Z
 

Dave Platt wrote:

On a different Sanyo page (http://www.eneloopusa.com/eneloop.html) they
say that they only provide warranty on the batteries if an Eneloop
or other Sanyo-branded NiMH charger is used. "Quick" chargers (those
charging in under 2 hours) should not be used, as these may reduce the
life of the battery... "2 hours or more" charging rate is recommended
(e.g. 0.5C or so).


That is very helpful, Dave, especially since I have a very fast charger
that would be very hard on these cells.

I'll get a set and use them on my slower chargers, and also warn people,
no faster than a two-hour charger for the new chemistry cells. (I have a
15 min Energizer charger that does well with Energizer AA and AAA cells,
but have not had a chance to evaluate lifetime. The cells charge nicely,
but 15 seems very hard charging.

MFJ-259Z
 

After charging and discharging over the past few days they are finally
keeping there charge. I have had the MFJ-259Z switched on with the power
save turned off for the past 10 hours and still have 12.6V left in the
batteries. A big difference from the 10-15 minutes I was getting from them
when I purchased it. All I have to do now is to learn and then test the unit
to make sure it is working ok. As I am new to using a Analyzer.

Many thanks all for your help.

73 Barrett


"Roy Lewallen" wrote in message
news:-qidnTDq7ap4GWTanZ2dnUVZ_jKdnZ2d@easystreetonline.. .
Tam wrote:
For what it'sworth, I looked at an MFJ-269 manual, and it claims to
trickle charge at 10 - 20 ma. At that rate it will take a long time to
charge a 2600 maH battery. They say minimum Vbat is 11V, but mine gets
flakey below 12. You might want to measure the under load battery voltage
when it fails and when you think it is fully charged.

Tam/WB2TT

I don't think a 2600 mAh cell will ever become anywhere near fully charged
at that charge rate. That's barely enough to maintain an existing charge.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

MFJ-259Z
 

Barrett wrote:
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0 Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can some

I'm not familiar with that analyzer but the websites indicate it uses AA
cells--presumably rechargable ones have been supplied with your 259Z. One
thing to check is that the cells are correctly inserted (sorry but it
happens often!) and that they're not protected by little plastic covers on
the positive terminals. Rechargable batteries that come with new
equipment often have tiny bits of plastic that have to be removed by the
end user. This isn't always mentioned in manuals.

If it's brand new and has never worked with the batteries alone, you might
have a manufacturing defect--they're not unknown in MFJ gear, not that I'm
knocking MFJ. You'd want to take a quick look at the charge/no-charge
switch, the bypass (if there is one) on the connector for the PSU on the
radio, etc.--simple things easily visible. You might also try charging
the AA cells in a standard charger, and seeing if the 259Z then works
properly with the batteries--if that doesn't work, it might be the cells
you have and not the analyzer itself.

HTH! 73 de AC4RD

_______________________________________________
Ken Kuzenski AC4RD atsign mindspring dotsign com
_______________________________________________
All disclaimers apply, see? www.duke.edu/~kuzen001

MFJ-259Z
 

I have had the batteries on charge in the MFJ-259Z for over a day now. The
jumper inside the unit is on for charging. The batteries were at 12.6V when
put on charge and are still 12.6V. The PSU is working fine. Because I can
run the unit off the PSU that came with it.

Any ideas on what can be wrong with it now?

Thanks


wrote in message
...
Barrett wrote:
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has
been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0
Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but
doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can
some

I'm not familiar with that analyzer but the websites indicate it uses AA
cells--presumably rechargable ones have been supplied with your 259Z. One
thing to check is that the cells are correctly inserted (sorry but it
happens often!) and that they're not protected by little plastic covers on
the positive terminals. Rechargable batteries that come with new
equipment often have tiny bits of plastic that have to be removed by the
end user. This isn't always mentioned in manuals.

If it's brand new and has never worked with the batteries alone, you might
have a manufacturing defect--they're not unknown in MFJ gear, not that I'm
knocking MFJ. You'd want to take a quick look at the charge/no-charge
switch, the bypass (if there is one) on the connector for the PSU on the
radio, etc.--simple things easily visible. You might also try charging
the AA cells in a standard charger, and seeing if the 259Z then works
properly with the batteries--if that doesn't work, it might be the cells
you have and not the analyzer itself.

HTH! 73 de AC4RD

_______________________________________________
Ken Kuzenski AC4RD atsign mindspring dotsign com
_______________________________________________
All disclaimers apply, see? www.duke.edu/~kuzen001

MFJ-259Z
 

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
I have had the batteries on charge in the MFJ-259Z for over a day now. The
jumper inside the unit is on for charging. The batteries were at 12.6V when
put on charge and are still 12.6V. The PSU is working fine. Because I can
run the unit off the PSU that came with it.

Any ideas on what can be wrong with it now?

Thanks


wrote in message
...
Barrett wrote:
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has
been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0
Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but
doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can
some

I'm not familiar with that analyzer but the websites indicate it uses AA
cells--presumably rechargable ones have been supplied with your 259Z.
One
thing to check is that the cells are correctly inserted (sorry but it
happens often!) and that they're not protected by little plastic covers
on
the positive terminals. Rechargable batteries that come with new
equipment often have tiny bits of plastic that have to be removed by the
end user. This isn't always mentioned in manuals.

If it's brand new and has never worked with the batteries alone, you
might
have a manufacturing defect--they're not unknown in MFJ gear, not that
I'm
knocking MFJ. You'd want to take a quick look at the charge/no-charge
switch, the bypass (if there is one) on the connector for the PSU on the
radio, etc.--simple things easily visible. You might also try charging
the AA cells in a standard charger, and seeing if the 259Z then works
properly with the batteries--if that doesn't work, it might be the cells
you have and not the analyzer itself.

HTH! 73 de AC4RD

_______________________________________________
Ken Kuzenski AC4RD atsign mindspring dotsign com
_______________________________________________
All disclaimers apply, see? www.duke.edu/~kuzen001

1] You might want to contact MFJ and see if they can supply you with a
schematic of the unit. Usually with minimum knowledge and a Volt/Ohm/Meter,
you should be able to check some internal voltages, and or check the
operations of transistors/voltage regulators, and or internal fuses.
2] If you don't want to open up the box, contact MFJ and see how much
they want to repair the unit.. They seem to be reasonable folks..

MFJ-259Z
 

I might send it back, its only 9 days old and I did inform them by email
within the 7 days from purchase about the trouble with the batteries. If it
was an easy fix I might do it myself. But I'm unsure to what is causing it.


"Howard W3CQH" wrote in message
...

"Barrett" wrote in message
...
I have had the batteries on charge in the MFJ-259Z for over a day now. The
jumper inside the unit is on for charging. The batteries were at 12.6V
when put on charge and are still 12.6V. The PSU is working fine. Because I
can run the unit off the PSU that came with it.

Any ideas on what can be wrong with it now?

Thanks


wrote in message
...
Barrett wrote:
I don't think that my MFJ-259Z is charging properly. Its new and it has
been
on charge for over 6 hours and all the batteries are still reading 0
Volts.
I'm using the PSU that came with it. It works fine from the PSU but
doesn't
seem to be charging. The switch inside for charging is turned on.. Can
some

I'm not familiar with that analyzer but the websites indicate it uses AA
cells--presumably rechargable ones have been supplied with your 259Z.
One
thing to check is that the cells are correctly inserted (sorry but it
happens often!) and that they're not protected by little plastic covers
on
the positive terminals. Rechargable batteries that come with new
equipment often have tiny bits of plastic that have to be removed by the
end user. This isn't always mentioned in manuals.

If it's brand new and has never worked with the batteries alone, you
might
have a manufacturing defect--they're not unknown in MFJ gear, not that
I'm
knocking MFJ. You'd want to take a quick look at the charge/no-charge
switch, the bypass (if there is one) on the connector for the PSU on the
radio, etc.--simple things easily visible. You might also try charging
the AA cells in a standard charger, and seeing if the 259Z then works
properly with the batteries--if that doesn't work, it might be the cells
you have and not the analyzer itself.

HTH! 73 de AC4RD

_______________________________________________
Ken Kuzenski AC4RD atsign mindspring dotsign com
_______________________________________________
All disclaimers apply, see? www.duke.edu/~kuzen001

1] You might want to contact MFJ and see if they can supply you with a
schematic of the unit. Usually with minimum knowledge and a
Volt/Ohm/Meter, you should be able to check some internal voltages, and or
check the operations of transistors/voltage regulators, and or internal
fuses.
2] If you don't want to open up the box, contact MFJ and see how much
they want to repair the unit.. They seem to be reasonable folks..