John Smith wrote:
RHF wrote:

...
js - but alas i remain a simple shortwave listener
who simply enjoys listening to the radio; cause
practically speaking; that is what i do
- - - respectfully ~ RHF
.

Quit peeing on my leg ...

Brother, I enjoy having a good time, a good drink and the company of a
good woman as well as anyone; And, furthermore, I am here because I
enjoy a good antenna as well as anyone else.

I am here because some know much more than me, can explain it in a
manner which I can absorb (Cecil is but one example), and I expect there
is much more for us ALL to learn, indeed ...

I ain't here to lecture you ... I ain't here to be a ham ... I ain't
here to play the game of "one-up-man-ship"; I am here to catch what I
missed "the-first-time-around"--end-of-story.

But now, a good argument, a good debate, a good "theory-session" ...
count me in!

Sit back, and pick on the next guy in line ... ;-)

Regards,
JS

A random wire (e.g. inverted L) transmits nicely if you use a tuner at
the feed point.

On Dec 27, 7:03*am, Dave wrote:
John Smith wrote:
RHF wrote:

...
js - but alas i remain a simple shortwave listener
who simply enjoys listening to the radio; cause
practically speaking; that is what i do
- - - respectfully ~ RHF
*.

Quit peeing on my leg ...

Brother, I enjoy having a good time, a good drink and the company of a
good woman as well as anyone; *And, furthermore, I am here because I
enjoy a good antenna as well as anyone else.

I am here because some know much more than me, can explain it in a
manner which I can absorb (Cecil is but one example), and I expect there
is much more for us ALL to learn, indeed ...

I ain't here to lecture you ... I ain't here to be a ham ... I ain't
here to play the game of "one-up-man-ship"; *I am here to catch what I
missed "the-first-time-around"--end-of-story.

But now, a good argument, a good debate, a good "theory-session" ...
count me in!

Sit back, and pick on the next guy in line ... *;-)

Regards,
JS

- A random wire (e.g. inverted L) transmits nicely
- if you use a tuner at the feed point.

Dave,

IIRC a good Amateur Radio 1/4 WL Vertical-Up-Leg
by 1/4 WL Horizontal-Out-Arm {Inverted "L" Antenna
requires very little Tuning and performs very well near
and far on the HF Band that it is 'cut' to use on.
Using a direct-connect or 1:1 UnUn at the Feed-Point
* Half-Wave Inverted "L" Antenna : 1/4 WL + 1/4 WL
http://www.bloomington.in.us/~wh2t/invertedl.html
http://www.antennex.com/preview/archive3/ltv.htm
* Yes a "Tuner" can help on other bands.

Where-as the more common Shortwave Listener (SWL)
type of {Random Wire} Inverted "L" Antenna is un-equal
and usually has a shorter Vertical-Up-Leg and a longer
Horizontal-Out-Arm of at least 1V-to-2H and often
1V-to-3H or more. Using a 9:1 Matching Transformer
and Ground Rod at the Feed-Point which is at the base
of the Vertical-Up-Leg.
* Again the Wellbrook Drawing
http://www.wellbrook.uk.com/images/antright.gif
http://www.wellbrook.uk.com/longwire.html

as usual it's the 'l' if i know - iane ~ RHF

RHF wrote:


Dave,

IIRC a good Amateur Radio 1/4 WL Vertical-Up-Leg
by 1/4 WL Horizontal-Out-Arm {Inverted "L" Antenna
requires very little Tuning and performs very well near
and far on the HF Band that it is 'cut' to use on.
Using a direct-connect or 1:1 UnUn at the Feed-Point
* Half-Wave Inverted "L" Antenna : 1/4 WL + 1/4 WL


Where-as the more common Shortwave Listener (SWL)
type of {Random Wire} Inverted "L" Antenna is un-equal
and usually has a shorter Vertical-Up-Leg and a longer
Horizontal-Out-Arm of at least 1V-to-2H and often
1V-to-3H or more. Using a 9:1 Matching Transformer
and Ground Rod at the Feed-Point which is at the base
of the Vertical-Up-Leg.



"Random" implies otherwise. Instead of a 9:1 UnUn, imagine one of these
at the feed point:

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Produc...ductid=MFJ-927

I enjoy playing with these kind of things. So I got a license to
transmit. Some call that "elitist", I call it self-indulgent.

Dave wrote:

...
A random wire (e.g. inverted L) transmits nicely if you use a tuner at
the feed point.

Nicely is rather a broad term ...

And, if I am running 1KW+, or even multi-kilowatts, and the guy on the
other end is doing the same--we can communicate "nicely" on very poor
antennas ...

However, if I am running 5 watts, and the other guy is also, a properly
constructed antenna which has been designed around efficiency and most
desirable radiation pattern, along with having a correct impedance and
is matched EXACTLY to the equipment, and such is done without a lossy
"matchbox" or inefficient matching method--these would be of paramount
importance.

Physics, as much as math, is an EXACT science ... antennas are NOT in
realm of "art" (gray areas, open to interpretation, is a matter of
personal opinion, etc.), there is but one "best" antenna for any given
distance, terrain, pattern, etc.

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:
Dave wrote:

...
A random wire (e.g. inverted L) transmits nicely if you use a tuner at
the feed point.

Nicely is rather a broad term ...

And, if I am running 1KW+, or even multi-kilowatts, and the guy on the
other end is doing the same--we can communicate "nicely" on very poor
antennas ...

However, if I am running 5 watts, and the other guy is also, a properly
constructed antenna which has been designed around efficiency and most
desirable radiation pattern, along with having a correct impedance and
is matched EXACTLY to the equipment, and such is done without a lossy
"matchbox" or inefficient matching method--these would be of paramount
importance.

Physics, as much as math, is an EXACT science ... antennas are NOT in
realm of "art" (gray areas, open to interpretation, is a matter of
personal opinion, etc.), there is but one "best" antenna for any given
distance, terrain, pattern, etc.

Regards,
JS

Dave wrote:
John Smith wrote:
RHF wrote:

...
js - but alas i remain a simple shortwave listener
who simply enjoys listening to the radio; cause
practically speaking; that is what i do
- - - respectfully ~ RHF
.

Quit peeing on my leg ...

Brother, I enjoy having a good time, a good drink and the company of a
good woman as well as anyone; And, furthermore, I am here because I
enjoy a good antenna as well as anyone else.

I am here because some know much more than me, can explain it in a
manner which I can absorb (Cecil is but one example), and I expect
there is much more for us ALL to learn, indeed ...

I ain't here to lecture you ... I ain't here to be a ham ... I ain't
here to play the game of "one-up-man-ship"; I am here to catch what I
missed "the-first-time-around"--end-of-story.

But now, a good argument, a good debate, a good "theory-session" ...
count me in!

Sit back, and pick on the next guy in line ... ;-)

Regards,
JS

A random wire (e.g. inverted L) transmits nicely if you use a tuner at
the feed point.

A resonate 1/4 wave dipole transmits "nicely" and uses no lossy tuner
.... a resonate 1/4 wave vertical monopole, with drooping ground plane,
transmits "nicely", requires no lossy tuner, and is damn near a perfect
match to 50 ohm coax ...

A 1/2 wave version of either of the above produces a superior pattern
and can be matched with either a T-match or gamma-match ... indeed, a
very minimal counterpoise is all which is necessary--and, if things are
"perfect", not even that is needed, or simply a choke on they outside of
the coax a ~1/4 wave away from feed point. A 5/8 is non-resonate
physical length, and even demonstrates a superior pattern (at least on
paper and with antenna prediction software ... )

However, in side-by-side comparisons on 10-6-2m antennas I have built,
comparing a 5/8 against the 1/2 (construction methods/materials and
matching components identical) ... the actual difference, in the real
world, must be less than the width of a meter needle in the readings ...
or, put simply, I no longer deal with the extra length required of the
5/8 ... your mileage may vary ...

Regards,
JS

John Smith wrote:

However, in side-by-side comparisons on 10-6-2m antennas I have built,
comparing a 5/8 against the 1/2 (construction methods/materials and
matching components identical) ... the actual difference, in the real
world, must be less than the width of a meter needle in the readings ...
or, put simply, I no longer deal with the extra length required of the
5/8 ... your mileage may vary ...

Regards,
JS

The advantage of a physical height (antenna length) between 180 and 215
degrees (see previous post regarding the magic number being around 195
degrees) is improved take-off angle and reduced skywave-groundwave
interaction, not dramatic nearfield voltage increases.

Dave wrote:

...
The advantage of a physical height (antenna length) between 180 and 215
degrees (see previous post regarding the magic number being around 195
degrees) is improved take-off angle and reduced skywave-groundwave
interaction, not dramatic nearfield voltage increases.

As I previously stated, works nicely on paper/software; in real life, I
have not been able to construct an antenna which demonstrates an
advantage to justify the difficulty of dealing with the extra length.
Now, a 2m on down, why not "toss it on", just in case?

Now, when loading a 1/4 wave physical length antenna to a 1/2 wave
electrical length, I DO see an advantage, increased radiation
resistance, minimal counterpoise required, etc. Even when taking into
consideration the losses added by the coil ...

Regards,
JS