RadioBanter - Installing a Ladder Line to the house

RadioBanter (https://www.radiobanter.com/)

- Antenna (https://www.radiobanter.com/antenna/)

- - Installing a Ladder Line to the house (https://www.radiobanter.com/antenna/139945-installing-ladder-line-house.html)

Installing a Ladder Line to the house

Cecil Moore wrote:
http://www.dxengineering.com/TechArticles.asp?ID={3E5220F7-2D0F-45B5-85F7-3B654F804C4F}

If anyone has trouble with that URL, you may need to cut
and paste the entire URL into your browser.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Installing a Ladder Line to the house

On Jan 11, 8:59*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Ed Cregger wrote:
I have an LDG 1:1 200 watt
balun that will tune my Van Gordon All Bander from one end to the other of
the HF spectrum, using just the internal tuner of my Yaesu FT-890AT. Go
figure.

If this is the 80m dipole with 100' of ladder-line, one
can look at my notuner all-band-HF antenna to see why
100' is a good fixed length for the ladder-line. 100'
is near a current maximum point (loop) on all HF bands.
If one varies the length of the ladder-line from 90' to
115', one doesn't even need a tuner and a 1:1 current-
balun-choke is ideal.

http://www.w5dxp.com/pnts130.gif

To my way of thinking (which is probably incorrect), using the 4:1 balun
would broaden the impedances that I could match versus the 1:1 balun. What
you are saying is just the opposite. Please elaborate. I will be most
grateful.

A 4:1 balun is a very good transformer over a narrow range.
Most are voltage baluns that do not balance currents and
therefore do little to discourage common-mode currents. Test
a balun looking into 2000+j2000 and see what happens. One
of my 4:1 baluns got so hot I couldn't touch the case. The
best balun design, IMO, is one where flux in the ferrite
is caused only by common-mode current and not by
differential-mode current.

Here's some useful information:

http://www.dxengineering.com/TechArticles.asp?ID={3E5220F7-2D0F-45B5-85F7-3B654F804C4F}
--
73, Cecil *http://www.w5dxp.com

The 4:1 balun in the 989c is not a voltage balun. It's fairly
hefty current balun wound on a big toroid.
I've used the same one when I'm using mine for ladder line.
I got my 989c free because of heat damage. But it was
fried coil forms, rather than the balun.
I tediously repaired the coil, and have been using it ever
since. The coil in it is actually the second one.
The guy burned up two of them, and finally decided
to buy a big Nye Viking, and gave me the 989c as
junk trash.
But he abused the tuner by trying to run a 1/2 size
dipole on 75m, and also running a 8877.. :/
Not a good idea when using a T network tuner..
I guess the Nye Viking was a bit stouter, as I
don't recall him killing it. But I bet even it got a
bit toasty at times. :(
Anyway, being he never managed to kill one of
the baluns with his torture tests, I imagine they
are fairly stout. It is a "3 KW" tuner.. wink,wink.. :/

Installing a Ladder Line to the house

wrote in message
...
On Jan 11, 8:59 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Ed Cregger wrote:
I have an LDG 1:1 200 watt
balun that will tune my Van Gordon All Bander from one end to the other
of
the HF spectrum, using just the internal tuner of my Yaesu FT-890AT. Go
figure.

If this is the 80m dipole with 100' of ladder-line, one
can look at my notuner all-band-HF antenna to see why
100' is a good fixed length for the ladder-line. 100'
is near a current maximum point (loop) on all HF bands.
If one varies the length of the ladder-line from 90' to
115', one doesn't even need a tuner and a 1:1 current-
balun-choke is ideal.

http://www.w5dxp.com/pnts130.gif

To my way of thinking (which is probably incorrect), using the 4:1 balun
would broaden the impedances that I could match versus the 1:1 balun.
What
you are saying is just the opposite. Please elaborate. I will be most
grateful.

A 4:1 balun is a very good transformer over a narrow range.
Most are voltage baluns that do not balance currents and
therefore do little to discourage common-mode currents. Test
a balun looking into 2000+j2000 and see what happens. One
of my 4:1 baluns got so hot I couldn't touch the case. The
best balun design, IMO, is one where flux in the ferrite
is caused only by common-mode current and not by
differential-mode current.

Here's some useful information:

http://www.dxengineering.com/TechArticles.asp?ID={3E5220F7-2D0F-45B5-85F7-3B654F804C4F}
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

The 4:1 balun in the 989c is not a voltage balun. It's fairly
hefty current balun wound on a big toroid.
I've used the same one when I'm using mine for ladder line.
I got my 989c free because of heat damage. But it was
fried coil forms, rather than the balun.
I tediously repaired the coil, and have been using it ever
since. The coil in it is actually the second one.
The guy burned up two of them, and finally decided
to buy a big Nye Viking, and gave me the 989c as
junk trash.
But he abused the tuner by trying to run a 1/2 size
dipole on 75m, and also running a 8877.. :/
Not a good idea when using a T network tuner..
I guess the Nye Viking was a bit stouter, as I
don't recall him killing it. But I bet even it got a
bit toasty at times. :(
Anyway, being he never managed to kill one of
the baluns with his torture tests, I imagine they
are fairly stout. It is a "3 KW" tuner.. wink,wink.. :/

-----------

Yeah, it's a 3kw tuner when the SWR is 1:1. Lots of folks don't understand
that at all.

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but all of the techno-babble (which
I too have memorized) such as current balun - voltage balun -
blah-blah-blah, does not help me do what I am trying to do. I've read all of
that a thousand times at least, memorized it, passed tests on the
fundamentals, etc. It doesn't apply directly in this instance.

I'm looking for a way to multiply the range of impedances that can be
matched.

Yeah, I know. This is not in the handbooks, but it is what I'm trying to do.
And, it has been done with the MFJ-989C balun, so I know that it CAN be
done.

Don't believe me? Operate the 989C direct from a coaxial output into an
external balun and then run it through the wire output which has the alleged
4:1 balun in line. The difference in the loads that can be matched is
astounding.

Problem is, I can no longer enjoyably tune the MFJ-989C due to arthritis. I
am looking for a balun that will multiply the impedances that can be matched
so that I can use my MFJ and LDG high power autotuners. The stock baluns I
have used do not provide this ability with these autotuners. Nor can they be
equalled using the MFJ-989C straight thru, without the internal balun in
line. Pardon me if I'm repeating myself. Need sleep.

What doesn't help is that I'm only using about half of the 100' of 450 ohm
twinlead feedline that came with my Van Gordon All Bander. I just have no
other way to lengthen it, so I'm stuck using almost fifty feet of the
twinlead. I'm sure this compounds the problems that I am having.

On top of all of that, I want to be able to run about 600 watts output from
my amplifiers (one upstairs/one downstairs). Any thoughts/ideas would be
appreciated. I have thought of going with a fan dipole, but that will reduce
my operating bands by nearly one half.

Ed, N2ECW

Installing a Ladder Line to the house

On Jan 11, 2:21*pm, "Ed Cregger" wrote:

-----------

Yeah, it's a 3kw tuner when the SWR is 1:1. Lots of folks don't understand
that at all.

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but all of the techno-babble (which
I too have memorized) such as current balun - voltage balun -
blah-blah-blah, does not help me do what I am trying to do. I've read all of
that a thousand times at least, memorized it, passed tests on the
fundamentals, etc. It doesn't apply directly in this instance.

Wasn't meant to.. I was just informing Cecil about the balun
in the tuner...

On top of all of that, I want to be able to run about 600 watts output from
my amplifiers (one upstairs/one downstairs). Any thoughts/ideas would be
appreciated. I have thought of going with a fan dipole, but that will reduce
my operating bands by nearly one half.

Can't really think of anything offhand, unless maybe you built
the various ratio baluns, and then used a switch to select
which one you want. Palomar used to make some baluns
with some different than usual ratios, but I don't think they
are still in business, and I think those were only rated for
100w or so.
So you might have to make your own to handle power.
And even then I'm not sure how well it would pan out.
I've never tried doing anything like that, so your guess
would probably be as good as mine.
Myself, I run the fan dipoles, but I'm not really too
worried about working all bands. I tend to stick
on the low bands most of the time. I hardly ever get
on 20-10 anymore, unless there is a disturbance
in the force. :/
But I still can if I want. I can slap the tuner inline and
even with the loss, I can still operate fairly well
on the "no element" bands.
But I hang out on 160/80/40 most the time.
In the summer, just 80/40 pretty much..
40 in the day, 80/75 at night.. So it's not too
complicated for me.. :/ The no tune plug n play
ease will spoil you. And the system is efficient
on the designed bands.
Heck, I've got a tower and tri-bander for the high bands.
But.. I don't use em here..
The tower is in the garage, and the beam is up in the attic.
Shows you how excited I am about 20-10 m these
days.. :/
The only time I've ever used that rig is when I've
drug it out to a few field days.
And being I don't usually work those bands at FD, I still
really haven't used it much myself.
It won 10m phone one year I think.. :) I wasn't the
operator though.. I don't come out of my hole until it gets
dark and the low bands come alive.

Installing a Ladder Line to the house

wrote in message
...
On Jan 11, 2:21 pm, "Ed Cregger" wrote:

-----------

Yeah, it's a 3kw tuner when the SWR is 1:1. Lots of folks don't understand
that at all.

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but all of the techno-babble
(which
I too have memorized) such as current balun - voltage balun -
blah-blah-blah, does not help me do what I am trying to do. I've read all
of
that a thousand times at least, memorized it, passed tests on the
fundamentals, etc. It doesn't apply directly in this instance.

Wasn't meant to.. I was just informing Cecil about the balun
in the tuner...

On top of all of that, I want to be able to run about 600 watts output
from
my amplifiers (one upstairs/one downstairs). Any thoughts/ideas would be
appreciated. I have thought of going with a fan dipole, but that will
reduce
my operating bands by nearly one half.

Can't really think of anything offhand, unless maybe you built
the various ratio baluns, and then used a switch to select
which one you want. Palomar used to make some baluns
with some different than usual ratios, but I don't think they
are still in business, and I think those were only rated for
100w or so.
So you might have to make your own to handle power.
And even then I'm not sure how well it would pan out.
I've never tried doing anything like that, so your guess
would probably be as good as mine.
Myself, I run the fan dipoles, but I'm not really too
worried about working all bands. I tend to stick
on the low bands most of the time. I hardly ever get
on 20-10 anymore, unless there is a disturbance
in the force. :/
But I still can if I want. I can slap the tuner inline and
even with the loss, I can still operate fairly well
on the "no element" bands.
But I hang out on 160/80/40 most the time.
In the summer, just 80/40 pretty much..
40 in the day, 80/75 at night.. So it's not too
complicated for me.. :/ The no tune plug n play
ease will spoil you. And the system is efficient
on the designed bands.
Heck, I've got a tower and tri-bander for the high bands.
But.. I don't use em here..
The tower is in the garage, and the beam is up in the attic.
Shows you how excited I am about 20-10 m these
days.. :/
The only time I've ever used that rig is when I've
drug it out to a few field days.
And being I don't usually work those bands at FD, I still
really haven't used it much myself.
It won 10m phone one year I think.. :) I wasn't the
operator though.. I don't come out of my hole until it gets
dark and the low bands come alive.

-----------

I may end up doing what you are doing - sort of. I too operate mostly 75 and
40 meters these days. I can put up a vertical for the higher bands. I
already have three commercial verticals (some old, one new), so I would
still have the capability to operate the higher HF bands, if I wanted to.

Thanks for letting me pick your brains. Much appreciated. All of you.

Ed, N2ECW

Installing a Ladder Line to the house

On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:50:33 -0500, "Ed Cregger"
wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message
om...
Bob Miller wrote:

I've had good luck bringing 450-ohm line through the window using
MFJ's 4602 window feed through board. It has ceramic feed through
insulators for the balanced line, more feedthrough's for a random
wire, three coax lines and a ground wire. Even includes weather
stripping and a burgler bar.

Bob
k5qwg
That's through a window, not through a wall. I use the MFJ myself.

If I did want to use non-resonant antennas I would locate a tuner at the
antenna feedpoint, not at the generator (transmitter).

Then you would cheat yourself of a fair amount of propagation and some of
the lower and higher frequencies available with such a set up.

You're not going to keep RF out of the shack, regardless of which system you
use. You might be able to keep some of the hot spots outside, but often
times they are close enough to the station that it is really a waste of
time.

This fascination with resonance is a leftover from CB thinking. How many
warships utilize resonant antennas? Yet they communicate the world over.

Yes, and they have bevy of antenna tuners to boot. Of course, some
radars use resonant antennas.

The aversion to transmatches is a ham cultural trait that has no basis in
reality, just as the CB'ers are hooked on resonant 50 ohm antennas. It's a
characteristic of the culture(s) of both types of operators, with no basis
in practical operating engineering.

Ed, N2ECW

Installing a Ladder Line to the house

I'm in the process of finishing the feedline for my 80m dipole,gonna use it for 80/75,40& 30 m, any suggestions for a lengths ??

Installing a Ladder Line to the house