James barrett wrote:
I've read some Q&A about ladder line and I didn't see exactly my
question. I want to run 450 ohm ladder line into the house. my tuner
has a built-in balun for a ladder line so I think I can just run the
ladder line all the way to the tuner.

How do I physically attach the ladder line to the house? All I can
think of is to nail it right through the spacers onto the side of the
house. But I don't know if the nails will interfere with transmission
at all.

A second that comes to mind when considering this setup: if I run the
ladder line all the way to the tuner, how do I ground it?


Thanks,
kb1odg

Use coaxial cable to get through the wall, then a BalUn outside to
transition to the balanced transmission line.

"Dave" wrote in message
...
James barrett wrote:
I've read some Q&A about ladder line and I didn't see exactly my
question. I want to run 450 ohm ladder line into the house. my tuner
has a built-in balun for a ladder line so I think I can just run the
ladder line all the way to the tuner.

How do I physically attach the ladder line to the house? All I can
think of is to nail it right through the spacers onto the side of the
house. But I don't know if the nails will interfere with transmission
at all.

A second that comes to mind when considering this setup: if I run the
ladder line all the way to the tuner, how do I ground it?


Thanks,
kb1odg

Use coaxial cable to get through the wall, then a BalUn outside to
transition to the balanced transmission line.

--------

I'm running a Van Gordon All Bander dipole. It utilizes 450 twinlead from
the dipole, thru the barrier into the house and connects to the 4:1 balun in
my MFJ-989C manual roller inductor tuner.

Instead of drilling a hole through the cinder blocks of my basement wall
(finished), I made up a barrier insert from a piece of 2x4" lumber to fit
under the lip of my window. I drilled two holes through the 2x4" lumber
spaced at the same distance as the conductors in the twinlead. I then used a
router bit to connect the dots. A very thin router bit. In fact, I think it
was the bit from my cut in any direction saw that I bought several years ago
and can't think of the name of it at the moment. They were all the rage on
TV. It rotates like a drill bit or router bit. I hope you can follow me.

I made the cut in the barrier board for the twinlead tight enough that I
haven't even bothered to silicone up the gap, it is that tight.

I haven't had any problems with it at all. No fires, no arcing, no scorching
the wood. I think it would take a lot more power to do that than my 1kw
Ameritron AL-80A can produce.

Is it a PITA (Pain In The Ass)? Yes. But it gets me any band that I want,
including six meters (in fine fashion too). If you go the coax route, you'll
end up with a G5RV that won't take more than 200 watts without frying the
twinlead, or you'll end up with a trapped doublet that only gives you a few
kilohertz operating bandwidth on most bands. Chances are that some bands
will be unusable unless you have a good tuner (no, not an autotuner - they
don't have enough "swing").

Running a piece of coax into twinlead with an antenna with high SWR can
generate high enough voltages to punch a hole through the coax' dielectric.
After that hole has been made, the voltage needed to jump that arc from then
on will be much lower, meaning that your signal will sound crappy and you
may have problems with your rig.

I put up with the 450 ohm twinlead all of the way into the house because it
provides me with the most bands in the smallest space. It will also handle a
kilowatt without protest.

Oh, I haven't seen a 4:1 balun that is worth what it costs to ship to your
door that sells for less than $139. I've gone through three brands lately.
Brands that were supposed to be (and used to be) top shelf. Makes me wish I
had held on to the good one that I bought years ago. That'll learn me.

Good luck.


Ed, N2ECW

Ed Cregger wrote:
Instead of drilling a hole through the cinder blocks of my basement wall
(finished), I made up a barrier insert from a piece of 2x4" lumber to fit
under the lip of my window.

MFJ offers six window-mounted feed through panels for such.
Their numbers are 4600-4605. MFJ-4600 has four balanced
and two coaxial feed-throughs.

Oh, I haven't seen a 4:1 balun that is worth what it costs to ship to your
door that sells for less than $139. I've gone through three brands lately.

If one doesn't know what magnitude of impedance is
being encountered by the balun, the best balun
solution is a husky 1:1 current (choke) balun, not
a 4:1 voltage balun which is designed to deal with
200 ohms, not 2000+j2000 ohms.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore" wrote

If one doesn't know what magnitude of impedance is
being encountered by the balun, the best balun
solution is a husky 1:1 current (choke) balun, not
a 4:1 voltage balun which is designed to deal with
200 ohms, not 2000+j2000 ohms.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

-----------

I used to be good at this stuff, Cecil, but that was long ago.

The only balun that has worked with any success so far has been the built-in
balun (4:1 allegedly) in my MFJ-989C. That I can get to work. When hooking
up other baluns and using the coax output on my tuner, none of the other
baluns work worth a hoot with one exception. I have an LDG 1:1 200 watt
balun that will tune my Van Gordon All Bander from one end to the other of
the HF spectrum, using just the internal tuner of my Yaesu FT-890AT. Go
figure.

I used to be a fairly sharp cookie at this stuff, but those days are in the
past. Got a serious case of "brick brain syndrome", if you know what I mean?

To my way of thinking (which is probably incorrect), using the 4:1 balun
would broaden the impedances that I could match versus the 1:1 balun. What
you are saying is just the opposite. Please elaborate. I will be most
grateful.

Ed, N2ECW

Ed Cregger wrote:
I have an LDG 1:1 200 watt
balun that will tune my Van Gordon All Bander from one end to the other of
the HF spectrum, using just the internal tuner of my Yaesu FT-890AT. Go
figure.

If this is the 80m dipole with 100' of ladder-line, one
can look at my notuner all-band-HF antenna to see why
100' is a good fixed length for the ladder-line. 100'
is near a current maximum point (loop) on all HF bands.
If one varies the length of the ladder-line from 90' to
115', one doesn't even need a tuner and a 1:1 current-
balun-choke is ideal.

http://www.w5dxp.com/pnts130.gif

To my way of thinking (which is probably incorrect), using the 4:1 balun
would broaden the impedances that I could match versus the 1:1 balun. What
you are saying is just the opposite. Please elaborate. I will be most
grateful.

A 4:1 balun is a very good transformer over a narrow range.
Most are voltage baluns that do not balance currents and
therefore do little to discourage common-mode currents. Test
a balun looking into 2000+j2000 and see what happens. One
of my 4:1 baluns got so hot I couldn't touch the case. The
best balun design, IMO, is one where flux in the ferrite
is caused only by common-mode current and not by
differential-mode current.

Here's some useful information:

http://www.dxengineering.com/TechArticles.asp?ID={3E5220F7-2D0F-45B5-85F7-3B654F804C4F}
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:
http://www.dxengineering.com/TechArticles.asp?ID={3E5220F7-2D0F-45B5-85F7-3B654F804C4F}

If anyone has trouble with that URL, you may need to cut
and paste the entire URL into your browser.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Jan 11, 8:59*am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Ed Cregger wrote:
I have an LDG 1:1 200 watt
balun that will tune my Van Gordon All Bander from one end to the other of
the HF spectrum, using just the internal tuner of my Yaesu FT-890AT. Go
figure.

If this is the 80m dipole with 100' of ladder-line, one
can look at my notuner all-band-HF antenna to see why
100' is a good fixed length for the ladder-line. 100'
is near a current maximum point (loop) on all HF bands.
If one varies the length of the ladder-line from 90' to
115', one doesn't even need a tuner and a 1:1 current-
balun-choke is ideal.

http://www.w5dxp.com/pnts130.gif

To my way of thinking (which is probably incorrect), using the 4:1 balun
would broaden the impedances that I could match versus the 1:1 balun. What
you are saying is just the opposite. Please elaborate. I will be most
grateful.

A 4:1 balun is a very good transformer over a narrow range.
Most are voltage baluns that do not balance currents and
therefore do little to discourage common-mode currents. Test
a balun looking into 2000+j2000 and see what happens. One
of my 4:1 baluns got so hot I couldn't touch the case. The
best balun design, IMO, is one where flux in the ferrite
is caused only by common-mode current and not by
differential-mode current.

Here's some useful information:

http://www.dxengineering.com/TechArticles.asp?ID={3E5220F7-2D0F-45B5-85F7-3B654F804C4F}
--
73, Cecil *http://www.w5dxp.com

The 4:1 balun in the 989c is not a voltage balun. It's fairly
hefty current balun wound on a big toroid.
I've used the same one when I'm using mine for ladder line.
I got my 989c free because of heat damage. But it was
fried coil forms, rather than the balun.
I tediously repaired the coil, and have been using it ever
since. The coil in it is actually the second one.
The guy burned up two of them, and finally decided
to buy a big Nye Viking, and gave me the 989c as
junk trash.
But he abused the tuner by trying to run a 1/2 size
dipole on 75m, and also running a 8877.. :/
Not a good idea when using a T network tuner..
I guess the Nye Viking was a bit stouter, as I
don't recall him killing it. But I bet even it got a
bit toasty at times.
Anyway, being he never managed to kill one of
the baluns with his torture tests, I imagine they
are fairly stout. It is a "3 KW" tuner.. wink,wink.. :/

wrote in message
...
On Jan 11, 8:59 am, Cecil Moore wrote:
Ed Cregger wrote:
I have an LDG 1:1 200 watt
balun that will tune my Van Gordon All Bander from one end to the other
of
the HF spectrum, using just the internal tuner of my Yaesu FT-890AT. Go
figure.

If this is the 80m dipole with 100' of ladder-line, one
can look at my notuner all-band-HF antenna to see why
100' is a good fixed length for the ladder-line. 100'
is near a current maximum point (loop) on all HF bands.
If one varies the length of the ladder-line from 90' to
115', one doesn't even need a tuner and a 1:1 current-
balun-choke is ideal.

http://www.w5dxp.com/pnts130.gif

To my way of thinking (which is probably incorrect), using the 4:1 balun
would broaden the impedances that I could match versus the 1:1 balun.
What
you are saying is just the opposite. Please elaborate. I will be most
grateful.

A 4:1 balun is a very good transformer over a narrow range.
Most are voltage baluns that do not balance currents and
therefore do little to discourage common-mode currents. Test
a balun looking into 2000+j2000 and see what happens. One
of my 4:1 baluns got so hot I couldn't touch the case. The
best balun design, IMO, is one where flux in the ferrite
is caused only by common-mode current and not by
differential-mode current.

Here's some useful information:

http://www.dxengineering.com/TechArticles.asp?ID={3E5220F7-2D0F-45B5-85F7-3B654F804C4F}
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

The 4:1 balun in the 989c is not a voltage balun. It's fairly
hefty current balun wound on a big toroid.
I've used the same one when I'm using mine for ladder line.
I got my 989c free because of heat damage. But it was
fried coil forms, rather than the balun.
I tediously repaired the coil, and have been using it ever
since. The coil in it is actually the second one.
The guy burned up two of them, and finally decided
to buy a big Nye Viking, and gave me the 989c as
junk trash.
But he abused the tuner by trying to run a 1/2 size
dipole on 75m, and also running a 8877.. :/
Not a good idea when using a T network tuner..
I guess the Nye Viking was a bit stouter, as I
don't recall him killing it. But I bet even it got a
bit toasty at times.
Anyway, being he never managed to kill one of
the baluns with his torture tests, I imagine they
are fairly stout. It is a "3 KW" tuner.. wink,wink.. :/

-----------

Yeah, it's a 3kw tuner when the SWR is 1:1. Lots of folks don't understand
that at all.

I don't mean to sound like a smart ass, but all of the techno-babble (which
I too have memorized) such as current balun - voltage balun -
blah-blah-blah, does not help me do what I am trying to do. I've read all of
that a thousand times at least, memorized it, passed tests on the
fundamentals, etc. It doesn't apply directly in this instance.

I'm looking for a way to multiply the range of impedances that can be
matched.

Yeah, I know. This is not in the handbooks, but it is what I'm trying to do.
And, it has been done with the MFJ-989C balun, so I know that it CAN be
done.

Don't believe me? Operate the 989C direct from a coaxial output into an
external balun and then run it through the wire output which has the alleged
4:1 balun in line. The difference in the loads that can be matched is
astounding.

Problem is, I can no longer enjoyably tune the MFJ-989C due to arthritis. I
am looking for a balun that will multiply the impedances that can be matched
so that I can use my MFJ and LDG high power autotuners. The stock baluns I
have used do not provide this ability with these autotuners. Nor can they be
equalled using the MFJ-989C straight thru, without the internal balun in
line. Pardon me if I'm repeating myself. Need sleep.

What doesn't help is that I'm only using about half of the 100' of 450 ohm
twinlead feedline that came with my Van Gordon All Bander. I just have no
other way to lengthen it, so I'm stuck using almost fifty feet of the
twinlead. I'm sure this compounds the problems that I am having.

On top of all of that, I want to be able to run about 600 watts output from
my amplifiers (one upstairs/one downstairs). Any thoughts/ideas would be
appreciated. I have thought of going with a fan dipole, but that will reduce
my operating bands by nearly one half.

Ed, N2ECW

In message , Dave
writes
James barrett wrote:
I've read some Q&A about ladder line and I didn't see exactly my
question. I want to run 450 ohm ladder line into the house. my tuner
has a built-in balun for a ladder line so I think I can just run the
ladder line all the way to the tuner.
How do I physically attach the ladder line to the house? All I can
think of is to nail it right through the spacers onto the side of the
house. But I don't know if the nails will interfere with transmission
at all.
A second that comes to mind when considering this setup: if I run
the
ladder line all the way to the tuner, how do I ground it?
Thanks,
kb1odg

Use coaxial cable to get through the wall, then a BalUn outside to
transition to the balanced transmission line.

Baluns don't like 'funny' impedances. Better to use 75 ohm twin through
the wall. If you don't have any lying around, maybe a bit of domestic
twin power cable/cord could be pressed into service.
--
Ian

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 13:22:19 +0000, Dave wrote:

James barrett wrote:
I've read some Q&A about ladder line and I didn't see exactly my
question. I want to run 450 ohm ladder line into the house. my tuner
has a built-in balun for a ladder line so I think I can just run the
ladder line all the way to the tuner.

How do I physically attach the ladder line to the house? All I can
think of is to nail it right through the spacers onto the side of the
house. But I don't know if the nails will interfere with transmission
at all.

A second that comes to mind when considering this setup: if I run the
ladder line all the way to the tuner, how do I ground it?


Thanks,
kb1odg

Use coaxial cable to get through the wall, then a BalUn outside to
transition to the balanced transmission line.

I've had good luck bringing 450-ohm line through the window using
MFJ's 4602 window feed through board. It has ceramic feed through
insulators for the balanced line, more feedthrough's for a random
wire, three coax lines and a ground wire. Even includes weather
stripping and a burgler bar.

Bob
k5qwg