Jack,

Have you determined that the radio is actually putting out 100W? The light
bulb test should give some indication. When I first got licensed on HF I
went through a bunch of antennas at less than 20 feet with essentially 0
results. For starters, unless you are DX, nobody will talk to you on 75 or
20 m SSB unless you are 5-9. I made my first contact half way across the
country on 15 m by using a 3 el 6 meter beam at 12 feet (In the attic of a 1
story house). Try getting out during a contest, but you really want to get
the wire at least 30 feet up. I don't think you mentioned what the antenna
is, or what bands you have tried.

Tam/WB2TT
"Jack Twilley" wrote in message
...
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"Richard" == Richard Clark writes:

Jack What's the best way to find out for what bands (if any) my
Jack current antenna is best suited? Would something like the
Jack Antenna Analyzer II (http://www.amqrp.org/kits/antanal/) or the
Jack 'Tenna Dipper (http://4sqrp.com/kits/kits.htm) answer this
Jack question?

Richard These are toys when it comes to the grist of your question.
Richard No analyzer will answer what is best as that is a subjective
Richard issue. Further, an antenna has more characteristics than
Richard feed point Z which impact the nature of your enquiry far
Richard more.

That's pretty much what I figured. I tried to provide a definition
for best that was more objective than subjective.

Richard A low antenna that warms the ground will look like a charmer
Richard to the analyzer, but then so would your dummy load. Get the
Richard idea? You already anticipate this I am sure.

Exactly. This is the same antenna that I've mentioned in the past,
less than twenty feet off the ground and less than five feet from the
house (which towers over the antenna by ten feet at its highest
point).

Richard The old methods, prior to the invention of analyzers,
Richard encompassed a simple sanity/reality check with the field
Richard strength meter. Put one 100 wavelengths out and take a
Richard reading. Do the same with a buddy in town. The differences
Richard should be telling. This will reveal how much power has
Richard escaped the grip of loss.

While I don't have a field strength meter, I do have a friend with a
DC-to-daylight receiver. He was able to receive me loud and clear
over a mile away. One hundred wavelengths would be twenty-four miles
- -- if he had a real antenna, he'd be perfectly situated for that kind
of test, but all he has is the whip that came with the receiver, so
I'm not sure that's going to be a valid test.

Richard Repeat with a DX contact (you and your buddy working the same
Richard remote station).

[... rest elided ...]

Ahahahaha. Richard, I've worked a DX contact *once*. That was day
one of the antenna's life, during the California QSO Party, when I
logged a contact with a guy in Germany. I have trouble working people
several towns over, and in fact have had only one QSO since the
weekend the antenna was installed. This part of the test is a little
optimistic.

Richard 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Thanks!

Jack.
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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"Tam" == t-tammaru Tam writes:

Tam Jack, Have you determined that the radio is actually putting out
Tam 100W? The light bulb test should give some indication.

I have an MFJ Versa Tuner II which has a power meter. It's not
laboratory certified, but the needle does go all the way up to 100
when I tune up and transmit.

Tam When I first got licensed on HF I went through a bunch of
Tam antennas at less than 20 feet with essentially 0 results. For
Tam starters, unless you are DX, nobody will talk to you on 75 or 20m
Tam SSB unless you are 5-9.

This disappoints me, and I really hope it's not true.

Tam I made my first contact half way across the country on 15 m by
Tam using a 3 el 6 meter beam at 12 feet (In the attic of a 1 story
Tam house). Try getting out during a contest, but you really want to
Tam get the wire at least 30 feet up. I don't think you mentioned
Tam what the antenna is, or what bands you have tried.

I can't get the wire any higher than it is right now at this current
location. This is pretty much the best I can do, and this little
antenna already totally fills my yard and the yards of each of my
neighbors (with their permission). It's a multiband fan dipole with
three pairs of legs, cut for 40, 20, and 10.

My current goal is to acquire a noise bridge and see where the antenna
resonates, then trim the antenna as necessary until it resonates in
the right places. After that, I'll look into feedline length
modifications as necessary. Hopefully those two approaches will
resolve my current issue.

Jack.
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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Jack,

Just some comments. I think you have the right kind of antenna with the fan
dipoles. You say it is lower than the house; can't you prop up at least some
of it to the height of the house, or a couple of feet more. Have you
determined that the radio puts out the same power on SSB (whistle) as when
you tune up (on CW?) ?

I made most of my early contacts during contests, by answereing calls from
people who did not have big pileups. If they hear you, they will come back
to you. I did get my SSB DXCC with a Junior beam at 28 feet.

To trim a multiple dipole like yours, you have to trim the lowest frequency
first, and work your way up. I have a 40/17/12 antenna like that, and this
is the only way I got it to convege in EZNEC.

Tam/WB2TT
"Jack Twilley" wrote in message
...
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"Tam" == t-tammaru Tam writes:

Tam Jack, Have you determined that the radio is actually putting out
Tam 100W? The light bulb test should give some indication.

I have an MFJ Versa Tuner II which has a power meter. It's not
laboratory certified, but the needle does go all the way up to 100
when I tune up and transmit.

Tam When I first got licensed on HF I went through a bunch of
Tam antennas at less than 20 feet with essentially 0 results. For
Tam starters, unless you are DX, nobody will talk to you on 75 or 20m
Tam SSB unless you are 5-9.

This disappoints me, and I really hope it's not true.

Tam I made my first contact half way across the country on 15 m by
Tam using a 3 el 6 meter beam at 12 feet (In the attic of a 1 story
Tam house). Try getting out during a contest, but you really want to
Tam get the wire at least 30 feet up. I don't think you mentioned
Tam what the antenna is, or what bands you have tried.

I can't get the wire any higher than it is right now at this current
location. This is pretty much the best I can do, and this little
antenna already totally fills my yard and the yards of each of my
neighbors (with their permission). It's a multiband fan dipole with
three pairs of legs, cut for 40, 20, and 10.

My current goal is to acquire a noise bridge and see where the antenna
resonates, then trim the antenna as necessary until it resonates in
the right places. After that, I'll look into feedline length
modifications as necessary. Hopefully those two approaches will
resolve my current issue.

Jack.
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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"Tam" == t-tammaru Tam writes:

Tam Jack, Just some comments. I think you have the right kind of
Tam antenna with the fan dipoles. You say it is lower than the house;
Tam can't you prop up at least some of it to the height of the house,
Tam or a couple of feet more.

Nope, I meant what I said when I said I can't get the wire any higher
than it is right now at this current location.

Tam Have you determined that the radio puts out the same power on SSB
Tam (whistle) as when you tune up (on CW?) ?

No, but I'm not really concerned about SSB versus CW -- I'll operate
CW if that's what it takes, and it'll be incentive to finally learn.

Tam I made most of my early contacts during contests, by answereing
Tam calls from people who did not have big pileups. If they hear you,
Tam they will come back to you. I did get my SSB DXCC with a Junior
Tam beam at 28 feet.

My situation is that I can't make a scheduled contact with someone
twenty miles from my house while we're on the phone. "Can you hear me
on this frequency? Let me key up and you tell me if you can hear me."
That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Worrying about how to get
lots of contacts is way way in the future -- I'm fixed on worrying
about whether my equipment is even working.

Tam To trim a multiple dipole like yours, you have to trim the lowest
Tam frequency first, and work your way up. I have a 40/17/12 antenna
Tam like that, and this is the only way I got it to convege in EZNEC.

That's the plan, once I get the noise bridge. My environment is too
complex for me to attempt to model it with EZNEC.

Jack.
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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"Jack Twilley" wrote in message
...
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Tam Have you determined that the radio puts out the same power on SSB
Tam (whistle) as when you tune up (on CW?) ?

No, but I'm not really concerned about SSB versus CW -- I'll operate
CW if that's what it takes, and it'll be incentive to finally learn.

That's what I am concerened about. You may have a bad mic, or just not
modulating due to some failure. When I wasn't able to get out, I could
alwayds talk to locals. Try CW/carrier with your friend. He doesn't have to
know CW if you are on the phone and he knows your frequency. I would do it
on 10m, away from anybody else. You know you can get 20 miles on CB with 5W,
and you have 100.

Tam/WB2TT

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"Tam" == t-tammaru Tam writes:

Tam Have you determined that the radio puts out the same power on SSB
Tam (whistle) as when you tune up (on CW?) ?

Jack No, but I'm not really concerned about SSB versus CW -- I'll
Jack operate CW if that's what it takes, and it'll be incentive to
Jack finally learn.

Tam That's what I am concerened about. You may have a bad mic, or
Tam just not modulating due to some failure. When I wasn't able to
Tam get out, I could alwayds talk to locals. Try CW/carrier with your
Tam friend.

I've tried just keying up and I could be heard a mile away, but not
twenty.

Tam He doesn't have to know CW if you are on the phone and he
Tam knows your frequency. I would do it on 10m, away from anybody
Tam else. You know you can get 20 miles on CB with 5W, and you have
Tam 100.

Excellent point.

Tam Tam/WB2TT

Jack.
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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Keep us posted as to what you find out. We could try a sched if it works at
all. I have a lot of free long distance on my cell phone for coordination. I
am in NJ.

Tam/WB2TT

There is no zero or dollar sign in comcast.

Jack Twilley wrote in message ...
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"Tam" == t-tammaru Tam writes:

Tam Jack, Have you determined that the radio is actually putting out
Tam 100W? The light bulb test should give some indication.

I have an MFJ Versa Tuner II which has a power meter. It's not
laboratory certified, but the needle does go all the way up to 100
when I tune up and transmit.

Well, you know the radio works...



I can't get the wire any higher than it is right now at this current
location. This is pretty much the best I can do, and this little
antenna already totally fills my yard and the yards of each of my
neighbors (with their permission). It's a multiband fan dipole with
three pairs of legs, cut for 40, 20, and 10.

Your antenna is *very* efficient on those three bands, unless you have
coax or connection problems and power is not making it to the antenna.
BTW, the 40 legs will work 15 ok, if you tweak the match with the
tuner...Will be pretty efficient on 15 also as a 1.5 wl dipole.

My current goal is to acquire a noise bridge and see where the antenna
resonates, then trim the antenna as necessary until it resonates in
the right places.

Good idea. You shouldn't really need the tuner.

After that, I'll look into feedline length
modifications as necessary.

Should be unneeded. If coax length radically varies SWR, you need a
1:1 balun or choke to cut radation from the shield.

Hopefully those two approaches will
resolve my current issue.

Actually, I don't think you have a problem, assuming no coax or
connector problems. Does the receive noise level, and signal levels
sound fairly normal, or dead? I think the main problem is trying to
work locally using ground wave, with an antenna that is poorly suited
for that. But, you should usually be able to work 40m in the day,
being it's mainly NVIS. 20 miles is a long way for a low horizontal
dipole to work locally without the help of skywave. A purely
horizontal antenna has no groundwave, if no vertical feedline
radiation, etc. It has a space wave, but it's going to be hard to work
20 miles over the noise. If both of you had verticals, it would
probably be easy. As far as comparing antennas, all you have to do is
use a antenna switch, and see which is best on receive. Operation is
reciprical 98.8 % of the time, so a transmit test is unneeded. You
should be having no problems working 40m in the day, or even 20m to
stateside stuff. 10m local will be very tough, but you should be able
to work some skywave. A vertical is much better for 10m local. 20 ft
high is high enough to work for medium distance skywave. Maybe not a
barnburner, but it should be working for general gov work...I've run
many lower than that when camping, and had no problems. If you can't
hardly work *anyone*, I would check your connections, and coax , etc.
Also, if you use the tuner for now, use the bare minimum inductance to
get a usable match. That will help reduce tuner losses, which can
climb to 20% or so if too much coil is used.
I would eventually tune the antenna up, and dump the tuner. There is
no real need for it, unless you go off far from where you normally
have it tuned. IE: work some CW when the antenna is tuned for the fone
band. MK

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"Mark" == Mark Keith writes:

[...]

Jack I have an MFJ Versa Tuner II which has a power meter. It's not
Jack laboratory certified, but the needle does go all the way up to
Jack 100 when I tune up and transmit.

Mark Well, you know the radio works...

At least enough to move that needle, or to come in on my friend's
DC-to-daylight receiver as I previously mentioned.

Jack I can't get the wire any higher than it is right now at this
Jack current location. This is pretty much the best I can do, and
Jack this little antenna already totally fills my yard and the yards
Jack of each of my neighbors (with their permission). It's a
Jack multiband fan dipole with three pairs of legs, cut for 40, 20,
Jack and 10.

Mark Your antenna is *very* efficient on those three bands, unless
Mark you have coax or connection problems and power is not making it
Mark to the antenna. BTW, the 40 legs will work 15 ok, if you tweak
Mark the match with the tuner...Will be pretty efficient on 15 also
Mark as a 1.5 wl dipole.

Providing the wires haven't stretched too much over the past six
months, or something else that might be wrong. Oh, and yes, all of
the dipole legs are coplanar, and I can't change that, so I'll have to
be careful when I tune them.

Jack My current goal is to acquire a noise bridge and see where the
Jack antenna resonates, then trim the antenna as necessary until it
Jack resonates in the right places.

Mark Good idea. You shouldn't really need the tuner.

I acquired an MFJ noise bridge with the help of Dave Platt, and here
are the results from some rough measurements at the rig (not at the
antenna!):

Frequency Depth R X Expander Resistance Reactance Impedance
3.750 4 D +25 No 122 28.67 125.32
7.150 2 A/B -25 No 14 -20.17 24.55
14.175 0.5 A/B +175 No 14 30.85 33.88
21.225 4.5 E +150 Yes 903.88 663.97 1121.54
28.850 0.5 A/B -100 No 14 -38.54 41.00

"Depth" is a rough estimate of how deep the null was when the
measurement was taken -- my rig has a 0-10 scale and the measurements
began when the noise was around 7 or 8, usually. The next three
columns were my readings, and the final three columns are the reported
values, in ohms.

The first thing to note is that the readings which resulted from the
deepest nulls are the readings which provide the most reasonable
impedances. This tells me that I'm getting sensible readings,
although I do need more practice with the device -- it's terribly
twitchy.

I plan on trying to find the resonant frequency of the antenna over
the next couple of days, with the goal of shortening (or lengthening)
the individual wires this weekend.

Jack After that, I'll look into feedline length modifications as
Jack necessary.

Mark Should be unneeded. If coax length radically varies SWR, you
Mark need a 1:1 balun or choke to cut radation from the shield.

I have two chokes in my feedline currently -- one about a foot from
the antenna feedpoint consisting of eight or nine turns of coax about
an air core (a Folger's coffee can was used for wrapping), and one
about a foot from the rig consisting of three large type 43 ferrite
toroids with three loops of coax passing through all three toroids.

Jack Hopefully those two approaches will resolve my current issue.

Mark Actually, I don't think you have a problem, assuming no coax or
Mark connector problems.

When conditions change for the worse with no obvious reason, I start
to consider the possibility that a problem exists. I can't blame
sunspots for everything, so I'm looking into how my antenna may have
changed since it was installed.

I just completed another test of my antenna. I set the antenna tuner
to "bypass" so I could use its SWR meter without affecting the
tuning. Then, for each of the five bands I want to use, I tuned up on
the dummy load, then switched over to the real antenna and checked the
SWR. Here's the results:

Frequency Dummy Antenna
3.750 1:1 infinity
7.150 1:1 2.5:1
14.175 1.05:1 3:1
21.225 1.1:1 3:1
28.850 1:1 1.9:1

There may be a correlation between these SWR measurements and the
impedance values shown above -- the three bands which had lower
impedance values also have lower SWR values, but none of them look
particularly healthy.

Mark Does the receive noise level, and signal levels sound fairly
Mark normal, or dead?

My experience aside from working from this location is limited to
Field Day, which isn't really helpful. On some bands I get tons of
receive noise, on others I get less.

Mark I think the main problem is trying to work locally using ground
Mark wave, with an antenna that is poorly suited for that. But, you
Mark should usually be able to work 40m in the day, being it's mainly
Mark NVIS.

NVIS is still a mystery to me, and I need to learn more about it.

Mark 20 miles is a long way for a low horizontal dipole to work
Mark locally without the help of skywave. A purely horizontal antenna
Mark has no groundwave, if no vertical feedline radiation, etc. It
Mark has a space wave, but it's going to be hard to work 20 miles
Mark over the noise. If both of you had verticals, it would probably
Mark be easy. As far as comparing antennas, all you have to do is use
Mark a antenna switch, and see which is best on receive. Operation is
Mark reciprical 98.8 % of the time, so a transmit test is unneeded.

I don't have any antenna against which to compare this one, though.

Mark You should be having no problems working 40m in the day, or even
Mark 20m to stateside stuff. 10m local will be very tough, but you
Mark should be able to work some skywave.

I'm currently unemployed, so I've got time for this kind of testing.
Tomorrow, I'll try 40, 20, and 10 in the morning (eight to ten), in
the afternoon (two to three), at sunset (five to seven), and at night
(nine to ten). I'll post the results tomorrow night.

Mark A vertical is much better for 10m local. 20 ft high is high
Mark enough to work for medium distance skywave. Maybe not a
Mark barnburner, but it should be working for general gov work...I've
Mark run many lower than that when camping, and had no problems. If
Mark you can't hardly work *anyone*, I would check your connections,
Mark and coax , etc.

I've already talked about having checked connections. I really think
the next step is to change the lengths, but I want to make sure I
understand the noise bridge's results first.

Mark Also, if you use the tuner for now, use the bare minimum
Mark inductance to get a usable match. That will help reduce tuner
Mark losses, which can climb to 20% or so if too much coil is used.

I've always done that, but mostly because that's what the antenna
tuner documentation says to do, not because I knew why. :-)

Mark I would eventually tune the antenna up, and dump the
Mark tuner. There is no real need for it, unless you go off far from
Mark where you normally have it tuned. IE: work some CW when the
Mark antenna is tuned for the fone band. MK

That's exactly why I bought the tuner -- that, and so I'd have an SWR
meter in the shack.

Jack.
- --
Jack Twilley
jmt at twilley dot org
http colon slash slash www dot twilley dot org slash tilde jmt slash
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"Jack Twilley" wrote in message
...
I tuned up on
the dummy load, then switched over to the real antenna and checked the
SWR. Here's the results:

Frequency Dummy Antenna
3.750 1:1 infinity
7.150 1:1 2.5:1
14.175 1.05:1 3:1
21.225 1.1:1 3:1
28.850 1:1 1.9:1
Jack,
I don'r have any experience with the noise bridge, but based on the SWR
readings, I would do the following:

Since you have no 80m radiator, ignore that band for now. Measure the SWR at
7.0 and 7.3+ to determine whether the 40m wire is too long or too short, and
trim to size. Repeat at 14.0 and 14.3+, and 28.0 and 28.5(?), assuming you
want the most used part of 10m. I guess you are useing the 40m radiator on
15.

Tam/WB2TT