Jim Kelley wrote:
In what way are any of the questions relevant to, or deterministic of
the assumption?

Answering a question with a question is a well known
diversion. Please answer my questions and you will
automatically answer yours.

Here's some mo How can a current that changes
phase by 3 degrees in 90 degrees of wire be used
to measure the EM wave delay through the wire?

How can that current be used to measure the delay
through a coil positioned in the middle of that wire?

How fast does EM wave energy travel through a wire?
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com
"Government 'help' to business is just as disastrous as
government persecution..." Ayn Rand

Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
In what way are any of the questions relevant to, or deterministic of
the assumption?

Answering a question with a question is a well known
diversion. Please answer my questions and you will
automatically answer yours.

One could claim that the questions exemplify your point about diversion.
:-)

Here's some mo How can a current that changes
phase by 3 degrees in 90 degrees of wire be used
to measure the EM wave delay through the wire?
How can that current be used to measure the delay
through a coil positioned in the middle of that wire?

Assuming the antenna is 90 degrees in length, the relevant currents can
be measured, the maximum is known and the minimum is zero, then:
According to the plots that I've seen, the standing wave pattern will
show a discontinuous change in amplitude at positions where there is an
abrupt change in phase of the traveling waves. Since it's fair to
assume propagation velocity is the same in both directions, waves would
be phase delayed by the same amount in both directions at a
discontinuity, and the combined sum of the two delays would account for
the total delay and for the resulting change in amplitude. Since a
standing wave can be considered an amplitude vs phase plot (where both
phase and amplitude vary with position) and the amplitude is known on
both sides of the discontinuity, the amplitude on each side of the
discontinuity relates functionally to a corresponding phase on the
abscissa of the standing wave curve. The total change in phase is equal
to the difference in phase on the two sides of the discontinuity. The
phase delay for each traveling wave is then half the total phase change.
Whether all of the assumptions are true for the cited case, I don't
know. The assumptions that you've made are not always clearly or
completely communicated, but would obviously weight heavily in the
results. This is also true for EZNEC results.

Why not take some actual phase shift measurements for yourself?

73, ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:
Why not take some actual phase shift measurements for yourself?

I have already done that at my previous QTH and
reported it two years ago. Remember these graphs
from software that you recommended?

http://www.w5dxp.com/travstnd.gif

My dual-trace scope measurements agreed within
the accuracy to which I could measure.

Point is that the delay through a transmission
line, a wire, or a coil is the same no matter
what type of current (standing wave or traveling
wave) is flowing. EM waves are EM waves. If the
current is primarily standing wave current with
essentially unchanging phase, the phase shift
in the standing wave current is unrelated to the
delay through the T-line, wire, or coil. Yet
standing wave current phase is what was used to
"prove" a 3 nS delay through a 100T, 2" dia, 10TPI
coil on 75m. If traveling wave current had been
used, as I did on my 75m Texas Bugcatcher coil,
the delay would have been shown to be ~26 nS.

In a 1/4WL monopole or 1/2WL dipole, the total
current is about 90% standing wave current.

Did you take a look at the current phase in these
two inverted-Vs?

http://www.w5dxp.com/inv_v.EZ

http://www.w5dxp.com/inv_vt.EZ
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
Why not take some actual phase shift measurements for yourself?

I have already done that at my previous QTH and
reported it two years ago. Remember these graphs
from software that you recommended?

http://www.w5dxp.com/travstnd.gif

My dual-trace scope measurements agreed within
the accuracy to which I could measure.

Point is that the delay through a transmission
line, a wire, or a coil is the same no matter
what type of current (standing wave or traveling
wave) is flowing. EM waves are EM waves. If the
current is primarily standing wave current with
essentially unchanging phase, the phase shift
in the standing wave current is unrelated to the
delay through the T-line, wire, or coil. Yet
standing wave current phase is what was used to
"prove" a 3 nS delay through a 100T, 2" dia, 10TPI
coil on 75m. If traveling wave current had been
used, as I did on my 75m Texas Bugcatcher coil,
the delay would have been shown to be ~26 nS.

In a 1/4WL monopole or 1/2WL dipole, the total
current is about 90% standing wave current.

Did you take a look at the current phase in these
two inverted-Vs?

http://www.w5dxp.com/inv_v.EZ

http://www.w5dxp.com/inv_vt.EZ

It's like having a conversation with a recorded message.

ac6xg

Jim Kelley wrote:

It's like having a conversation with a recorded message.

ac6xg

Exactly why I plonked him a few years ago. The relative silence is
refreshing, and I haven't missed a thing.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Roy Lewallen wrote:
Exactly why I plonked him a few years ago.

Roy, I remember it well. You plonked me when I
reminded you that an antenna is a distributed
network and NOT a lumped circuit. Anyone can
verify that simply by googling the newsgroup.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

Jim Kelley wrote:
It's like having a conversation with a recorded message.

On my end, it's like trying to communicate with
an I/O interface that is all output and no input.
I have no other choice but to repeat the questions
that you, so far, have refused to answer.

So here is it again: How can one use the total
current in a 1/4WL monopole, which changes phase
by 3 degrees in 90 degrees of antenna, to measure
the delay through a wire or a loading coil?

It's a really simple question, Jim. Either one
can or one cannot.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
It's like having a conversation with a recorded message.

I have no other choice but to repeat the questions
that you, so far, have refused to answer.

Beeep. Check Google newsgroups, yesterday at 7:11 PM.

ac6xg

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 14:05:05 -0700 (PDT), Jim Kelley
wrote:



Cecil Moore wrote:
Jim Kelley wrote:
It's like having a conversation with a recorded message.

I have no other choice but to repeat the questions
that you, so far, have refused to answer.

Beeep. Check Google newsgroups, yesterday at 7:11 PM.

Hi Jim,

You have experienced the famous time conjugated
answer-preceding-the-question paradox of Cecil's information
transformation. What Cecil is saying (we are now employing the random
byte discard from the data babblefield):
you have misunderstood your answer to the question I am asking now.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Jim Kelley wrote:
Beeep. Check Google newsgroups, yesterday at 7:11 PM.

Beeep. Check this very newsgroup. I already responded
to that posting. You didn't answer the question. We
are not talking about discontinuities. We are talking
about a straight 1/4WL piece of wire. So allow me to
keep asking until I get a reasonable response:

EZNEC says there is ~3 degrees of phase change in the
current in 90 degrees of monopole. How can that current
be used to measure the delay through 'n' degrees of
monopole?

For instance - in 30 degrees of monopole, the current
shifts phase by one degree. What *exactly* does that
indicate? Wouldn't the delay be more accurately
measured by comparing the ARCCOSine of the amplitudes?
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com