On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:08:01 GMT, the renowned KLM
wrote:

On a different discussion point, picture the recent Spanish train
bombings (10 set off.) Had the train installed cellphone signal
blocking equipment most of those bombs would probably not have been
set off.

From the fact that few of them went off in the station, where they
would have been far more effective, one may conclude that they were
triggered by simple timers.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:32:03 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:


On a different discussion point, picture the recent Spanish train
bombings (10 set off.) Had the train installed cellphone signal
blocking equipment most of those bombs would probably not have been
set off.

From the fact that few of them went off in the station, where they
would have been far more effective, one may conclude that they were
triggered by simple timers.


Let's say three bombs went off at the station. If the other seven
were prevented from going off that would still have been a significant
victory against terror.

Of course terrorists will always find other ways to detonate their
bombs and the most effective method is still the suicide bomber, no
technology sophistication there. Be forewarned. They will not remain
the technology primitives they are today. In this escalating war new
solutions will have to be found again and again. But in the meantime
I think I have put forth a reasonable proposal that is cheap and
easily implemented, to greatly reduce the opportunities for cellphone
triggered bombs. More important, perhaps to reduce the enormous
effort and costs to provide surveillance in public places.

I like my idea of a built-in transponder chip that can be interrogated
at check-out counters. A portable interrogator can be used to check
abandoned packages from a safe distance without needing to know the
cellphone call number. The Spanish rescue team found an unexploded
bomb laden bag with a cellphone trigger and were very lucky that it
didn't go off.

"KLM" schreef in bericht
...
On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:32:03 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:


On a different discussion point, picture the recent Spanish train
bombings (10 set off.) Had the train installed cellphone signal
blocking equipment most of those bombs would probably not have been
set off.

From the fact that few of them went off in the station, where they
would have been far more effective, one may conclude that they were
triggered by simple timers.


Let's say three bombs went off at the station. If the other seven
were prevented from going off that would still have been a significant
victory against terror.

Of course terrorists will always find other ways to detonate their
bombs and the most effective method is still the suicide bomber, no
technology sophistication there. Be forewarned. They will not remain
the technology primitives they are today. In this escalating war new
solutions will have to be found again and again. But in the meantime
I think I have put forth a reasonable proposal that is cheap and
easily implemented, to greatly reduce the opportunities for cellphone
triggered bombs. More important, perhaps to reduce the enormous
effort and costs to provide surveillance in public places.

I like my idea of a built-in transponder chip that can be interrogated
at check-out counters. A portable interrogator can be used to check
abandoned packages from a safe distance without needing to know the
cellphone call number. The Spanish rescue team found an unexploded
bomb laden bag with a cellphone trigger and were very lucky that it
didn't go off.

Forget it. You can't fight terrorism. You can only take away
the anger/frustration that *feeds* it, which takes time and
a lot of wisdom. A roll of duct-tape isn't going to fix anything.


--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'x' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

Forget it. You can't fight terrorism. You can only take away
the anger/frustration that *feeds* it, which takes time and
a lot of wisdom. A roll of duct-tape isn't going to fix anything.
Those are very wise words.
Thats *IS* exactly how it is.
Unfortunatly the big terrorist Bush wants to have war everywhere,
so he can sell weapons, and will make unrest everywhere.
His men are now in Siria, perhaps also in Taiwan, Bush was talking today
of 'world is at war' well, that for sure is what he is directing every
possible energy towards.
So my hopes of this realization being realized so to speak are not great.
Only chance we have, in our lives, is to enjoy this moment given to us,
NOW, there are no guarantees for the future, and the past is gone.
There are however people in this world trying to make people realize
that peace in an inner experience, your own choice so to speak, and
atainable, for example my Guru www.maharaji.org.
So, as long as there is a way out, we are free :-)
JP

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Forget it. You can't fight terrorism. You can only take away
the anger/frustration that *feeds* it, which takes time and
a lot of wisdom. A roll of duct-tape isn't going to fix anything.

Those are very wise words.
Thats *IS* exactly how it is.

Actually, we fought nazi terrorism during WWII and won. Seems
to me it would be more appropriate to say: "The fight against
terrorism is a never ending war unless we take away the
anger/frustration that *feeds* it."
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil wrote,

Jan Panteltje wrote:
Forget it. You can't fight terrorism. You can only take away
the anger/frustration that *feeds* it, which takes time and
a lot of wisdom. A roll of duct-tape isn't going to fix anything.

Those are very wise words.
Thats *IS* exactly how it is.

Actually, we fought nazi terrorism during WWII and won. Seems
to me it would be more appropriate to say: "The fight against
terrorism is a never ending war unless we take away the
anger/frustration that *feeds* it."
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



Actually, we used terrorism against the Nazis, the Japanese, and
the Italians in WWII and were very satisfied with the results. We also
paid people like Osama Bin Laden to terrorize the Russians when they
invaded Afghanistan and were again very satisfied with the results.
Moreover, we were quite happy to see Saddam Hussein terrorize the Iranians and
the Kurds when it suited our interests. We were not pleased to have
these dogs turn on us, however, and so we're now engaged in a war on
"terrorism." That's code. What we mean by it is not that we're against
terrorism,
since we are capable of using it ourselves when the need arises,
but against being terrorized.
73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 10:29:15 +0100, "Frank Bemelman"
wrote:


Forget it. You can't fight terrorism. You can only take away
the anger/frustration that *feeds* it, which takes time and
a lot of wisdom. A roll of duct-tape isn't going to fix anything.


I agree with you 100%. But its an emotional subject I avoid
assiduously as any argument that says the Arabs and the Muslims have
good reason to feel the way they do will invite very angry flames from
a sector of shoot-em-all-first Americans. For crying out loud, even
Americans who hold this view (Arabs and Muslims have valid grievences)
have been intimidated into silence by their own side. Until the
American right wing come around to dealing with the root causes of
why people are willing to blow themselves up to take out their
enemies, suicide bombings will continue.

The issue is intimately linked with what's going on in Israel. Again
I refuse to get caught in the middle as one will be mauled by both
parties whatever one says. Was it Mercuto who said "Pox on both
Houses" in Romeo and Juliet? Exactly my feelings.

-------------------------------------
I originally used the term CP signal blocking and there were
off-the-shelf equipment openly available for sale some years ago. It
blocks signals to your establishment, eg. inside a restaurant, in
specific frequencies only I believe. I presume the signal blocker
does not block signals outside the premise for that would be clearly
illegal. It does not jam signals with dirty noise that intereferes
with the safe operation of other electronic equipment which is also
clearly illegal.

In any case the suggestion for cellphone signal free areas is just a
suggestion. Of course it wouldn't stop CP triggered bombings for they
will just plant them elsewhere. But at least there is a chance that
the more high value target - a very crowded place in a high profile
establishment - may be spared.

KLM says...

I like my idea of a built-in transponder chip that can be interrogated
at check-out counters.

It has a fatal flaw. Al, the terrorists have to do is to buy a
couple of hundred of the current cell phones that lack the chip
and store them away for making bombs with.


--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 05:54:13 GMT, KLM wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 01:32:03 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:


On a different discussion point, picture the recent Spanish train
bombings (10 set off.) Had the train installed cellphone signal
blocking equipment most of those bombs would probably not have been
set off.

From the fact that few of them went off in the station, where they
would have been far more effective, one may conclude that they were
triggered by simple timers.


Let's say three bombs went off at the station. If the other seven
were prevented from going off that would still have been a significant
victory against terror.

Of course terrorists will always find other ways to detonate their
bombs and the most effective method is still the suicide bomber, no
technology sophistication there. Be forewarned. They will not remain
the technology primitives they are today. In this escalating war new
solutions will have to be found again and again. But in the meantime
I think I have put forth a reasonable proposal that is cheap and
easily implemented, to greatly reduce the opportunities for cellphone
triggered bombs. More important, perhaps to reduce the enormous
effort and costs to provide surveillance in public places.

I like my idea of a built-in transponder chip that can be interrogated
at check-out counters. A portable interrogator can be used to check
abandoned packages from a safe distance without needing to know the
cellphone call number. The Spanish rescue team found an unexploded
bomb laden bag with a cellphone trigger and were very lucky that it
didn't go off.

Objections of others partially aside, you're getting close to a
workable idea. If a few of the off the shelf trak phones had to be
recalled or exchanged for new ones, any old ones the T's stockpiled
would be worthless.

The RFID systems could be set up to either cover a small area like a
turnstile or a larger area depending on how you wanted to go about
implementing security for a given loacation.

The problem to overcome is that we don't want to set one off in a
crowd, so we don't want it to ring in response to the RFID
interrogation. We also don't want an invasion of privacy, so a
generic RFID response would be the solution.

We also don't want the thing detonating from the interrogation with
people around and that's the biggest prob. You have to admit only
one person at a time into the area. That's not too bad. It's common
courtesy to stand back from someone using an ATM so maybe a few feet
will do. Like in a bank line.

I don't imagine the T's will want the thing detonating at the check
point either, so they'll probably have that figured out and an
inspection of the phone should reveal anything suspicious.

I think the real problem is the human factor. When baggage handlers
make $15/hr and get full union benefits, while the security
contractor pays his monkeys minimum wage, you have apathy. This is
no BS, it's serious. Back in the 80's after the Berlin disco bombing
and a few other attacks, people were talking a lot about security.
And talking is about all they did.

I went through the security check at the Atlanta airport and after
being admitted into the so-called secure area I had to go to the
bathroom so I asked where it was. Damned if it wasn't outside the
secure area. I went out through an unckecked passage and came right
back in. No one bothered checking me.

Last few times I went through a metal detector, I set it off. The
first time, the guard checked me with the wand and suggested it was
my shoes or the jacket zipper, but didn't ask me to remove them. The
second time (a month later) I went through, the same guard was
there. I just pointed to the shoes and the zipper and I was in.
Friggin' apathy. Maybe he remembered that the wand didn't indicate a
big enough chunk of metal, but that jacket fit just about right to
conceal a Glock.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 07:29:27 -0500, Active8
wrote:



We also don't want the thing detonating from the interrogation with
people around and that's the biggest prob. You have to admit only
one person at a time into the area. That's not too bad. It's common
courtesy to stand back from someone using an ATM so maybe a few feet
will do. Like in a bank line.

I did consider this objection. The interrogation will be done going
into a designated area (eg. sports stadium, train station where other
waiting to go in can wait some distance away. If I recall this
(checks going in) was done for the Superbowl and were not backpacks
and other bags banned? So have them enter a blast cage (to catch the
sharpnel mostly) or something like that for RFID interrogation. The
idea is not unlike the airport metal detector gate check. Once they
are in they are presumed to be safe.

So perhaps have similar "interrogation gates" for people entering a
pedestrians only shopping area, or to Times Square for the New Year
bash.

We are dealing with only one threat - CP triggered bombs. Therefore,
please think small and figure if it is worth doing. I am not trying
to protect the whole world.