"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
"Peter" wrote in
. au:

Hi all

I'm looking at purchasing an MFJ269 antenna analyser and keen to hear
experience of others in this group regarding this or similar analysers.
Appears to be ideal if it is as good as MFJ claim.



Peter,

Effective exploitation of the capability of this type of analyser depends
on a sound understanding of transmission lines, and of the instrument's
own limitation. The availability of these analysers at low cost, and the
perception that they are a magic bullet has lead to a lot of pseudo
technical nonsense being proposed. The magic is more in the user's
capability than the box, and buying the box doesn't buy knowledge and
understanding... but the device can help develop knowledge and
understanding.

I have not used a '269 (though I have extensively used a '259B), but I
suspect that it does not display the sign of X. Estimation of the sign of
X in the '259 and similar instruments is an issue, and confuses many
users. There are propositions that sign of X is easily determined from
the slope of X with frequency at a point... but whilst that is true for
an ideal passive component, it is not true in general.

These instruments are often used in pursuit of the questionable goal of
resonance, and the instrument used to show resonance by observing X=0, or
X approximately zero, or a local minimum for X at some frequency on the
assumption that X changes sign at that point and that resonance of
something is indicated.

I wrote some notes entitled "In pursuit of dipole resonance with an
MFJ259B" at http://vk1od.net/blog/?p=680 that canvasses the behaviour of
the instrument in such an application, and flags the issues in
measurement. You may find them interesting.

Others have raised the issue that these instruments use a broadband
detector, which works fine so long as the internal oscillator has low
harmonic content and dominates the detector. If you let one of these
things time out, the oscillator is shut down, and if you see indication
on the meters, then energy from another source is of sufficient magnitude
to be concerned about the accuracy of measurements.

Owen

Thanks Owen for the information and your notes "In pursuit of dipole
resonance with an MFJ259B"
My intended use for the device is to get a bit of view on what's going on
with my various home brew antennas and matching devices and for my own
curiosity to compare theory with real world.

I must admit I had assumed that the 269 analyzer display the sign of the
reactance, I will have to reread the ad.

Regards


Peter VK6YSF

http://members.optushome.com.au/vk6ysf/vk6ysf/main.htm

"Peter" wrote in
. au:

....
I must admit I had assumed that the 269 analyzer display the sign of
the reactance, I will have to reread the ad.

Ah, you were looking for honesty in advertising!

The online guff on the MFJ259B says:
"Read Complex Impedance as series resistance and reactance (R+jX) or as
magnitude (Z) and phase (degrees)."

The MFJ259B definitely does *not* show phase angle or reactance as
negative for cases where X is actually negative.

The same words appear in the MFJ269 online page, so it may also be a
misrepresentation.

I see in the MFJ269 manual, the same pretence over the sign of phase and
reactance. It contains the words "Besides Z, an angle between zero and 90
degrees is shown. This angle represents the phase difference between
current and voltage at the terminals of the analyzer."

Of course, a phase angle between "zero and 90 degrees" does not represent
"phase difference between current and voltage at the terminals of the
analyzer" in the case of a capacitive impedance.

Honesty in advertising... think again.

Owen

"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
"Peter" wrote in
. au:

...
I must admit I had assumed that the 269 analyzer display the sign of
the reactance, I will have to reread the ad.

Ah, you were looking for honesty in advertising!

The online guff on the MFJ259B says:
"Read Complex Impedance as series resistance and reactance (R+jX) or as
magnitude (Z) and phase (degrees)."

The MFJ259B definitely does *not* show phase angle or reactance as
negative for cases where X is actually negative.

The same words appear in the MFJ269 online page, so it may also be a
misrepresentation.

I see in the MFJ269 manual, the same pretence over the sign of phase and
reactance. It contains the words "Besides Z, an angle between zero and 90
degrees is shown. This angle represents the phase difference between
current and voltage at the terminals of the analyzer."

Of course, a phase angle between "zero and 90 degrees" does not represent
"phase difference between current and voltage at the terminals of the
analyzer" in the case of a capacitive impedance.

Honesty in advertising... think again.

Owen

What was I thinking! I was impressed with what was being claimed.

I will continue with my product research and you can expect me to float some
other manufactures device on this group soon for comments.

Peter VK6YSF

http://members.optushome.com.au/vk6ysf/vk6ysf/main.htm

"Peter" wrote in message
...

"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
"Peter" wrote in
. au:

...
I must admit I had assumed that the 269 analyzer display the sign of
the reactance, I will have to reread the ad.

Ah, you were looking for honesty in advertising!

The online guff on the MFJ259B says:
"Read Complex Impedance as series resistance and reactance (R+jX) or as
magnitude (Z) and phase (degrees)."

The MFJ259B definitely does *not* show phase angle or reactance as
negative for cases where X is actually negative.

The same words appear in the MFJ269 online page, so it may also be a
misrepresentation.

I see in the MFJ269 manual, the same pretence over the sign of phase and
reactance. It contains the words "Besides Z, an angle between zero and 90
degrees is shown. This angle represents the phase difference between
current and voltage at the terminals of the analyzer."

Of course, a phase angle between "zero and 90 degrees" does not represent
"phase difference between current and voltage at the terminals of the
analyzer" in the case of a capacitive impedance.

Honesty in advertising... think again.

Owen

What was I thinking! I was impressed with what was being claimed.

I will continue with my product research and you can expect me to float
some other manufactures device on this group soon for comments.

Peter VK6YSF

Again- look at the RigExpert A-200A. Batteries seem to last forever, it's
USB upgradable and it DOES resolve the sign of R +/-JX.

Dale W4OP

"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...

"Peter" wrote in message
...

"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
"Peter" wrote in
. au:

...
I must admit I had assumed that the 269 analyzer display the sign of
the reactance, I will have to reread the ad.

Ah, you were looking for honesty in advertising!

The online guff on the MFJ259B says:
"Read Complex Impedance as series resistance and reactance (R+jX) or as
magnitude (Z) and phase (degrees)."

The MFJ259B definitely does *not* show phase angle or reactance as
negative for cases where X is actually negative.

The same words appear in the MFJ269 online page, so it may also be a
misrepresentation.

I see in the MFJ269 manual, the same pretence over the sign of phase and
reactance. It contains the words "Besides Z, an angle between zero and
90
degrees is shown. This angle represents the phase difference between
current and voltage at the terminals of the analyzer."

Of course, a phase angle between "zero and 90 degrees" does not
represent
"phase difference between current and voltage at the terminals of the
analyzer" in the case of a capacitive impedance.

Honesty in advertising... think again.

Owen

What was I thinking! I was impressed with what was being claimed.

I will continue with my product research and you can expect me to float
some other manufactures device on this group soon for comments.

Peter VK6YSF

Again- look at the RigExpert A-200A. Batteries seem to last forever, it's
USB upgradable and it DOES resolve the sign of R +/-JX.

Dale W4OP
Thanks Dale

I have just had a look at the RigExpert site. Look impressive, but the
MFJ269 at about $400US was about my limit.
I think I will take a step back and conduct a more scientific review of all
of the antenna analyzers on offer, there for you should get sick of my
postings over the next couple of weeks/months.
I must say that the ability to save and analyze data on the lap top is an
appealing feature.

Regards

Peter VK6YSF

http://members.optushome.com.au/vk6ysf/vk6ysf/main.htm

Peter wrote:

I have just had a look at the RigExpert site. Look impressive, but the
MFJ269 at about $400US was about my limit.
I think I will take a step back and conduct a more scientific review of all
of the antenna analyzers on offer, there for you should get sick of my
postings over the next couple of weeks/months.
I must say that the ability to save and analyze data on the lap top is an
appealing feature.

Regards

Peter VK6YSF

http://members.optushome.com.au/vk6ysf/vk6ysf/main.htm

Have a look at the AIM 4170 at http://www.arraysolutions.com/

I have that and a MFJ analyzer.

For a quick antenna adjustment, the MFJ is easier to use.

For in depth analysis, the AIM can't be beat.

If I had only one, I would prefer to have the AIM.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

From:
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 Time: 15:45:00

Have a look at the AIM 4170 at http://www.arraysolutions.com/

I have that and a MFJ analyzer.

For a quick antenna adjustment, the MFJ is easier to use.

For in depth analysis, the AIM can't be beat.

If I had only one, I would prefer to have the AIM.


I'll second that. The AIM4170 *is* expensive, especially when you add on
15% UK sales tax (and it took me 18 months to take the plunge), but it
does so much more than the MFJ units.

Instant computer readout, in nice graphical form, of all the antenna
system parameters over any selected frequency range up to 170MHz. They
claim to have interference reduction capability to minimize the effects
of close AM MW signals, but I don't live close enough to an AM
transmitter to test this.

The other nice thing about the 4170 is the ability to control it
remotely. With the 4170 connected to the antenna system in the shack and
controlled by a local PC, it's then possible to remotely access the PC
from a cheapy notebook in the backyard. You can make antenna adjustments
out in the yard and see the effects of the changes immediately, without
having to repeatedly walk back indoors to look at the 4170 PC. This
feature alone has saved me a *lot* of time:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wadei/A...Control%20HOWT
O%20-%20090106.pdf

Well worth a look.

--
73
Ian, G3NRW

"Peter" wrote in
. au:


"Dale Parfitt" wrote in message
...

"Peter" wrote in message
...

"Owen Duffy" wrote in message
...
"Peter" wrote in
. au:

...
I must admit I had assumed that the 269 analyzer display the sign
of the reactance, I will have to reread the ad.

Ah, you were looking for honesty in advertising!

The online guff on the MFJ259B says:
"Read Complex Impedance as series resistance and reactance (R+jX)
or as magnitude (Z) and phase (degrees)."

The MFJ259B definitely does *not* show phase angle or reactance as
negative for cases where X is actually negative.

The same words appear in the MFJ269 online page, so it may also be
a misrepresentation.

I see in the MFJ269 manual, the same pretence over the sign of
phase and reactance. It contains the words "Besides Z, an angle
between zero and 90
degrees is shown. This angle represents the phase difference
between current and voltage at the terminals of the analyzer."

Of course, a phase angle between "zero and 90 degrees" does not
represent
"phase difference between current and voltage at the terminals of
the analyzer" in the case of a capacitive impedance.

Honesty in advertising... think again.

Owen

What was I thinking! I was impressed with what was being claimed.

I will continue with my product research and you can expect me to
float some other manufactures device on this group soon for
comments.

Peter VK6YSF

Again- look at the RigExpert A-200A. Batteries seem to last forever,
it's USB upgradable and it DOES resolve the sign of R +/-JX.

Dale W4OP
Thanks Dale

I have just had a look at the RigExpert site. Look impressive, but the
MFJ269 at about $400US was about my limit.
I think I will take a step back and conduct a more scientific review
of all of the antenna analyzers on offer, there for you should get
sick of my postings over the next couple of weeks/months.
I must say that the ability to save and analyze data on the lap top is
an appealing feature.

Peter,

It helps to identify what you really need from the instrument. The
difficulty in doing that is foreseeing where an unstructured learning
journey might take you.

You will tend to arrive a points where you want to measure something just
beyond your existing capability. If the quest is for pure learning, then
just concentrate on the things that are within scope, and enjoy the
learning.

I admit that it is a bit of an old world view of ham radio, that it is
quintessentially a technical learning activity... but call me a dinasour.

The resolution of sign with the '259B is not a show stopper, but it is a
convenience issue and in the hands of a person with inadequate knowledge,
it is potentially misleading.

TLLC (http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php) can refer impedance made at
one point on a known transmission line (eg the tx end) to another point
(eg the load end). Of course, uncertainty of the TL parameters
contributes to measurement uncertainty. This technique is ok for one off
measurements, but would be very labour intensive for a sweep with
hundreds of observations.

The ability to calibrate the feedline 'fixture' as part of a VNA
measurement system provides the convenience of measurement referred to
your preferred reference plan. The AIM4170 is (as I understand it) half
of a VNA, but that should be enough to do the same thing.

So, for the advantages of the ham grade VNA over the MFJ259B, you pay
more money, get better measurement resolution (the AD converters have
better resolution than the MFJ259B), have capability for automation of
measurement referred to a convenient reference plane, but... you lose
portability... though there is no reason why a ham grade VNA with a basic
display system couldn't be portable.

Owen

The ability to calibrate the feedline 'fixture' as part of a VNA
measurement system provides the convenience of measurement referred to
your preferred reference plan. The AIM4170 is (as I understand it) half
of a VNA, but that should be enough to do the same thing.

So, for the advantages of the ham grade VNA over the MFJ259B, you pay
more money, get better measurement resolution (the AD converters have
better resolution than the MFJ259B), have capability for automation of
measurement referred to a convenient reference plane, but... you lose
portability... though there is no reason why a ham grade VNA with a basic
display system couldn't be portable.

Owen

The fixture cal is a pretty standard feature of all the ham VNAs (AIM
4170, TAPR VNA, N2PK) whether one or two port devices.

Making it portable is something I've been toying with.. The software is
not that complex (at least for the TAPR VNA), so running it on a PDA
velcroed to the top of the box isn't out of the question. One problem
is that the TAPR VNA is a USB slave, and most PDAs can't be a USB master.

Maybe a small touchscreen netbook? Granted, you're now talking $1000 for
the complete setup, but you'll have a real portable powerhouse, much
like the Anritsu SiteMaster at 1/10th the cost.


http://www.us.anritsu.com/products/S...QSidZ1016.aspx


I've also contemplated making something like a S-parameter test set for
the TAPR VNA (so you can do both directions) with a built in eCal.
Basically just high quality relays and terminations is what's needed.

Another useful add-on would be something that turns the VNA into a
spectrum analyzer (e.g. use the output as the LO to a mixer followed by
a BPF).. There's a lot of other problems with this, though.

I have just had a look at the RigExpert site. Look impressive, but the
MFJ269 at about $400US was about my limit.
I think I will take a step back and conduct a more scientific review
of all of the antenna analyzers on offer, there for you should get
sick of my postings over the next couple of weeks/months.
I must say that the ability to save and analyze data on the lap top is
an appealing feature.

Peter,

It helps to identify what you really need from the instrument. The
difficulty in doing that is foreseeing where an unstructured learning
journey might take you.

You will tend to arrive a points where you want to measure something just
beyond your existing capability. If the quest is for pure learning, then
just concentrate on the things that are within scope, and enjoy the
learning.

I admit that it is a bit of an old world view of ham radio, that it is
quintessentially a technical learning activity... but call me a dinasour.

The resolution of sign with the '259B is not a show stopper, but it is a
convenience issue and in the hands of a person with inadequate knowledge,
it is potentially misleading.

TLLC (http://www.vk1od.net/calc/tl/tllc.php) can refer impedance made at
one point on a known transmission line (eg the tx end) to another point
(eg the load end). Of course, uncertainty of the TL parameters
contributes to measurement uncertainty. This technique is ok for one off
measurements, but would be very labour intensive for a sweep with
hundreds of observations.

The ability to calibrate the feedline 'fixture' as part of a VNA
measurement system provides the convenience of measurement referred to
your preferred reference plan. The AIM4170 is (as I understand it) half
of a VNA, but that should be enough to do the same thing.

So, for the advantages of the ham grade VNA over the MFJ259B, you pay
more money, get better measurement resolution (the AD converters have
better resolution than the MFJ259B), have capability for automation of
measurement referred to a convenient reference plane, but... you lose
portability... though there is no reason why a ham grade VNA with a basic
display system couldn't be portable.

Owen

Owen I would never call you a dinasour or should I say from one dinasour to
another! I agree with your sentiments entirely of ham radio being a
technical learning activity.

For me the outlay for any antenna analyzer is significant, but I'm prepared
to pay a bit for the instrument that covers foreseeable needs, but that will
be as you say will cater for measurements just beyond my current capability.

Let the evaluation continue.

Regards

Peter