Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

"Cecil Moore" wrote
Since the forward current and reflected current are equal
in magnitude and opposite in phase at the ends, they act
like transmission line currents and the magnetic fields
cancel at the ends. They are in phase at the feedpoint -
hence the maximum radiation at that point.

See what Richard Harrison wrote:
"At the open circuited ends of a resonant
antenna there is almost double
the forward voltage but zero total current due to cancellation of the
forward and reflected currents at the open circuit. At the open circuit
in the wire, all the energy in the wave is transferred to the electric
field."

What I wrote agrees with what Richard H. wrote and vice versa.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:53:15 +0200, Szczepan Bia?ek
wrote:

And what should do Richard Harrison who wrote

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the failure of your swampy
metaphor - EXCEPT to demonstrate its stagnation into a cesspool by
being completely ignored by you.

It's amusing to see you wading out there tho'. ;-)

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:
The electric field is radiated from the ends where is
high voltage and no current.

An individual photon is emitted by an individual
decelerating free electron complete with a
self-contained electric and magnetic field.
It is impossible for the electric field of
a single particular photon to originate 1/4WL
away from the origin of the magnetic field.
--
73, Cecil, IEEE, OOTC, http://www.w5dxp.com

On Sep 21, 12:23Â*pm, Szczepan BiaÅ‚ek wrote:
Â*"tom" news:4ab41e80$0$42842$8046368 ...

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

God forbid that you should actually do some research! Â*What a terrible
thought!

All necessary resarch are done by radio people. You all know how antennas
work. Monopole and dipole means the electric pole because no magnetic poles.
You only do not realize that EM waves can start from the ELECRIC field. The
electric field is radiated from the ends where is high voltage and no
current.
S*

S*
These guys are not helping you! What they are doing is using you for
cannon fodder.
Try looking at things my way. You know that when a time varying
current is applied to a radiator that it also supports a reacting
current with spin, known as as an Eddy current
You also know that the current applied produces a electrical field and
a magnetic field that interchange energy between each other in the
form of a tank circuit.
Now look at the sequence of actions.We do know that the Eddy current
produces a lifting force and a spin force and we also know that there
is a electro static field surrounding the radiator. First we must
recognise that particles encapsulate the whole radiator but can be
individually lifted from the radiator with spin applied a short
distance. At this point it enters the electrostatic field around the
radiator where at the same time the generated magnetic field is
intersecting the electrostatic field. The moment that the lifted
particle enters the electro static field mix it is subjected to a
accelarating force exactly the same way as a electron in a CRT is
impacted upon. If you refer to the actions within a electron tube you
will note that the electrostatic field offsets the direction of the
accellerated particle into an exiting parabolic direction. The
combined fields will only accelerate the particle while it is within
the electrostatic field proper, after which it has a straight line
projection with spin. The time that it is within the electrostatic
field is the total accelerating time ie Newtons law 1/2 ft sqd.
The acceleration imparted to the particle happens to be the speed of
light which implies that this particle is able to emit light. If you
have difficulty then read up on the CRT.
As a point of interest the Eddy current itself must be balanced by an
equal and opposite force per Newton and if we look at it in boundary
terms we see that the opposing force is the combination of Gravity and
the rotation of the Earth. What this shows is that the particle has
spin and accelleration where the vector associated with Gravity is now
neutralized such that it retains its straight line action with spin
as it traverses the boundaries of the Earth Another thing of
importance is that Newtons laws are based on the condition of mass
where the particle becomes an excellent fit as opposed to a field or a
wave.
Back to the radiator itself. If it is a full wave length then it is a
closed circuit of the tank circuit form. If a radiator is less than a
wave length then yes, charges will form at the end of a radiator but
is hampered from further movement by the opposing impedance of the
environment. The charges will still leak but with out a spinning
action it will remain in the near field. Ofcourse changing the
environment will give an instantaneus charge in a spark form because
as an open circuit it always searches for the closed circuit function.
Regards
Art

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
On Sep 21, 12:23 pm, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"tom"
news:4ab41e80$0$42842$8046368 ...

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

God forbid that you should actually do some research! What a terrible
thought!

All necessary resarch are done by radio people. You all know how antennas
work. Monopole and dipole means the electric pole because no magnetic
poles.
You only do not realize that EM waves can start from the ELECRIC field.
The
electric field is radiated from the ends where is high voltage and no
current.
S*

S*
These guys are not helping you! What they are doing is using you for
cannon fodder.
Try looking at things my way. You know that when a time varying
current is applied to a radiator that it also supports a reacting
current with spin, known as as an Eddy current
You also know that the current applied produces a electrical field and
a magnetic field that interchange energy between each other in the
form of a tank circuit.
Now look at the sequence of actions.We do know that the Eddy current
produces a lifting force and a spin force and we also know that there
is a electro static field surrounding the radiator. First we must
recognise that particles encapsulate the whole radiator but can be
individually lifted from the radiator with spin applied a short
distance. At this point it enters the electrostatic field around the
radiator where at the same time the generated magnetic field is
intersecting the electrostatic field. The moment that the lifted
particle enters the electro static field mix it is subjected to a
accelarating force exactly the same way as a electron in a CRT is
impacted upon. If you refer to the actions within a electron tube you
will note that the electrostatic field offsets the direction of the
accellerated particle into an exiting parabolic direction. The
combined fields will only accelerate the particle while it is within
the electrostatic field proper, after which it has a straight line
projection with spin. The time that it is within the electrostatic
field is the total accelerating time ie Newtons law 1/2 ft sqd.
The acceleration imparted to the particle happens to be the speed of
light which implies that this particle is able to emit light. If you
have difficulty then read up on the CRT.
As a point of interest the Eddy current itself must be balanced by an
equal and opposite force per Newton and if we look at it in boundary
terms we see that the opposing force is the combination of Gravity and
the rotation of the Earth. What this shows is that the particle has
spin and accelleration where the vector associated with Gravity is now
neutralized such that it retains its straight line action with spin
as it traverses the boundaries of the Earth Another thing of
importance is that Newtons laws are based on the condition of mass
where the particle becomes an excellent fit as opposed to a field or a
wave.
Back to the radiator itself. If it is a full wave length then it is a
closed circuit of the tank circuit form. If a radiator is less than a
wave length then yes, charges will form at the end of a radiator but
is hampered from further movement by the opposing impedance of the
environment. The charges will still leak but with out a spinning
action it will remain in the near field. Ofcourse changing the
environment will give an instantaneus charge in a spark form because
as an open circuit it always searches for the closed circuit function.
Regards
Art


That's hilarious!

We're not using Mr. Bialek as 'cannon fodder' - he is presenting himself as
cannon fodder voluntarily and he has the power to stop this happening. The
same applies to you. But the concept of him looking at things your way is
akin to a nun on a clowns head.

Eddy currents are not named after someone called Eddy and the speed of light
is a speed so it cannot be an amount of acceleration. Any takers for the
other faux pas?

Chris

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:19:22 +0100, "christofire"
wrote:


"Art Unwin" wrote in message
the Eddy current itself must be balanced by an
equal and opposite force

Eddy currents are not named after someone called Eddy and the speed of light
is a speed so it cannot be an amount of acceleration. Any takers for the
other faux pas?

I can imagine an Uncle Eddy, but for equal and opposite - Auntie Eddy?

If an eddy circulates in one direction (maintaining the hydrological
metaphor of Stefan's) Auntie Eddy must run opposite. So now the Art
of Antenna Bris finds itself in a backwash.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Sep 21, 3:33*pm, Art Unwin wrote:
S*
These guys are not helping you! What they are doing is using you for
cannon fodder. Try looking at things my way. major snip

Interesting how Art Unwin has tried to hijack this thread into yet
another pulpit of his for those willing to believe his bizarre, and
unprovable concepts about antenna theory and performance.

RF

On Sep 21, 4:19*pm, "christofire" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

...
On Sep 21, 12:23 pm, Szczepan Bialek wrote:



"tom"
news:4ab41e80$0$42842$8046368 ...

Szczepan Bia³ek wrote:

God forbid that you should actually do some research! What a terrible
thought!

All necessary resarch are done by radio people. You all know how antennas
work. Monopole and dipole means the electric pole because no magnetic
poles.
You only do not realize that EM waves can start from the ELECRIC field.
The
electric field is radiated from the ends where is high voltage and no
current.
S*

S*
These guys are not helping you! What they are doing is using you for
cannon fodder.
Try looking at things my way. You know that when a time varying
current is applied to a radiator that it also supports a reacting
current with spin, known as as an Eddy current
You also know that the current applied produces a electrical field and
a magnetic field that interchange energy between each other in the
form of a tank circuit.
Now look at the sequence of actions.We do know that the Eddy current
produces a lifting force and a spin force and we also know that there
is a electro static field surrounding the radiator. First we must
recognise that particles encapsulate the whole radiator but can be
individually lifted from the radiator with spin applied a short
distance. At this point it enters the electrostatic field around the
radiator where at the same time the generated magnetic field is
intersecting the electrostatic field. The moment that the lifted
particle enters the electro static field mix it is subjected to a
accelarating force exactly the same way as a electron in a CRT is
impacted upon. If you refer to the actions within a electron tube you
will note that the electrostatic field offsets the direction of the
accellerated particle into an exiting parabolic direction. The
combined fields will only accelerate the particle while it is within
the electrostatic field proper, after which it has a straight line
projection with spin. The time that it is within the electrostatic
field is the total accelerating time ie Newtons law 1/2 ft sqd.
The acceleration imparted to the particle happens to be the speed of
light which implies that this particle is able to emit light. If you
have difficulty then read up on the CRT.
As a point of interest the Eddy current itself must be balanced by an
equal and opposite force per Newton and if we look at it in boundary
terms we see that the opposing force is the combination of Gravity and
the rotation of the Earth. What this shows is that the particle has
spin and accelleration where the vector associated with Gravity is now
neutralized such that it retains its straight line action with spin
as it traverses the boundaries of the Earth Another thing of
importance is that Newtons laws are based on the condition of mass
where the particle becomes an excellent fit as opposed to a field or a
wave.
*Back to the radiator itself. If it is a full wave length then it is a
closed circuit of the tank circuit form. If a radiator is less than a
wave length then yes, charges will form at the end of a radiator but
is hampered from further movement by the opposing impedance of the
environment. The charges will still leak but with out a spinning
action it will remain in the near field. Ofcourse changing the
environment will give an instantaneus charge in a spark form because
as an open circuit it always searches for the closed circuit function.
Regards
Art

That's hilarious!

We're not using Mr. Bialek as 'cannon fodder' - he is presenting himself as
cannon fodder voluntarily and he has the power to stop this happening. *The
same applies to you. *But the concept of him looking at things your way is
akin to a nun on a clowns head.

Eddy currents are not named after someone called Eddy and the speed of light
is a speed so it cannot be an amount of acceleration. *Any takers for the
other faux pas?

Chris

Chris you are being stupid as well as acting as a fool.
Acceleration of the particle only occurs while within the
electrostatic field. When it exits it has the speed of light because
it has emmerged from the intersecting two fields.and thus from the
accellerating forces. I remind you of Newtons law of ut + 1/2 ft sqd
The first expression is for the speed attained on entering the
accelerating field and the other half is for the length of the
accelerating electrostatic field. On leaving the two fields it looses
the applied accelerating force where it has arrived at a particular
speed.Maybe you should look up the workings of a CRT using Newtons
laws instead of shooting from the hip.
It was at a different time that the speed of light was measured where
it was found to equal the sppeed emerging from two intersecting fields.

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

"Dave" wrote
...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message

In the Gas Analogy the monopole antena is exactly like the Kundt's
tube.

Heaviside did the Hydraulic Analogy. All is exactly the same like in the
fluids mechanics.
Next the electrons were discovered. Automatically Heaviside is a history
and the Gas Analogy is in power.

But you, radio people, are very close to waves and should be easy for
you to work out the answer for the Question:
Which Analogy is right?

neither analogy is 'right'. they are useful in limited circumstances to
demonstrate some basic pressure wave physics to young students. but
neither one properly reproduces electromagnetic waves.

"electromagnetic waves" are paper waves. Radio waves are real waves. Now
we must not know what the waves are like. Now we should estabilish from
which part of the radiator radiate the radio waves.
Do you agree with Richard Harisson:
"At the open circuited ends of a resonant antenna there is almost double
the forward voltage but zero total current due to cancellation of the
dorward and reflected currents at the open circuit. At the open circuit
in the wire, all the energy in the wave is transferred to the electric
field."
S*


we know what they are like, you just have to understand the mathematics.
and yes, richard's statements are true, but a bit too restrictive, it
doesn't HAVE to be resonant. Voltage doubles and current=0 at the end of
any wire fed with a time varying current, it doesn't even have to be a sine
wave... note the effect of sending square waves from a time domain
reflectometer down an open circuited wire.

"Art Unwin" wrote in message
...
On Sep 21, 4:19 pm, "christofire" wrote:
"Art Unwin" wrote in message

- - snip - -

Chris you are being stupid as well as acting as a fool.
Acceleration of the particle only occurs while within the
electrostatic field. When it exits it has the speed of light because
it has emmerged from the intersecting two fields.and thus from the
accellerating forces. I remind you of Newtons law of ut + 1/2 ft sqd
The first expression is for the speed attained on entering the
accelerating field and the other half is for the length of the
accelerating electrostatic field. On leaving the two fields it looses
the applied accelerating force where it has arrived at a particular
speed.Maybe you should look up the workings of a CRT using Newtons
laws instead of shooting from the hip.
It was at a different time that the speed of light was measured where
it was found to equal the sppeed emerging from two intersecting fields.


* Actually, I'm well aware of the principle involved in accelerating
electrons in an electron gun as used in CRTs, klystrons, TWTs, and so on, by
subjecting an electron cloud to a potential difference using an anode with a
hole in it (!), but that's different from what happens in an antenna.

The acceleration of charge in an antenna results almost entirely from the
applied potential difference at its terminals. The radiated fields result
from the alternating current effectively passing through the radiation
resistance, and all the other, reactive, fields have no direct effect on the
radiation resistance, or the component of the current that passes through it
in phase with the voltage that is developed across it, which together, of
course, represent the radiated power. The reactive fields affect the
terminal impedance and a large imaginary part can upset the device trying to
send power into the antenna, but that is more of a system issue. The
alternating current that passes through the radiation resistance is composed
of charge that moves in time with each RF cycle, accelerating and
decelerating accordingly. The electrostatic field developed between the
ends of a half-wave dipole reaches its maximum value a quarter of a cycle
later than the voltage at the drive point so any effect it has on the charge
in the antenna elements during each cycle must be reactive, and it doesn't
affect the radiation resistance or the radiated wave.

But all this can be looked up from any one of the respected books on
antennas. Kraus, and others, gives expressions for the different field
components and the theory all hangs together quite readily using Maxwell's
equations without modification.

I don't care if you think me stupid, and I'll continue to try to avoid name
calling of individuals, although I may criticise what they write especially
if it appears ignorant of proper science yet attempts to re-write
established theory, and therefore appears arrogant.

Chris