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FM antenna curiosity
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:42:15 -0500, "amdx" wrote: Richard, after I read your letter I did a little better checking and found my signal is not weak it is to strong, I'm getting interference from other frequencies. Also I get stations on the wrong frequency. I went out and collapsed the antenna to minimum about 1/3 of what it was and my problem station is perfect and the other station I listen to is still good. The local NPR station isn't good though. But I can download the podcast of Science Friday :-) Thanks, Mike Hi Mike, Normally, a too strong signal is not a problem with FM as FM literally locks onto the strongest signal and rejects the competitors. This is not a characteristic of the RF wave, but rather the modulation employed. Collapsing your antenna is the same thing as moving it. Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared with the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that). A simple test is to tune into at least two of these off-frequency stations, note what frequency they should be and subtract the frequency where they appear. If you are having image issues (no, this is not a self-help hint), the two or more stations should come up with the same differences. If you come up with the same number, AND you have trouble with interference from adjacent stations (there are guard bands to prevent this), THEN you have one crappy receiver. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC The receiver is an undercounter mounting Sony AM/FM, radio with CD. Nothing great, but Sony ususally does a fair job. Mike |
#2
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FM antenna curiosity
I have an FM radio inside an aluminum boat. The radio worked ok with the
AC cord as the antenna but I got interference when I used my laptop. I found the circuit that ran from the power transformer to the antenna input on the FM IC. I installed a connector that is used on car radios and wired the center pin to the foil that went to the FM IC (capacitor on pcb isolated) and the shield side to dc ground near the IC. I then plugged in a telescoping car antenna and it worked great on the bench . So I installed the antenna on the outside of the boat and the radio inside, now one station I listen to is weak, but if I unplug the antenna and let the center pin touch ground of the connector on the radio it comes in great. Just curious why it is working this way. BTW, the mod did cure the computer hash. Mike |
#3
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FM antenna curiosity
amdx Inscribed thus:
I have an FM radio inside an aluminum boat. The radio worked ok with the AC cord as the antenna but I got interference when I used my laptop. I found the circuit that ran from the power transformer to the antenna input on the FM IC. I installed a connector that is used on car radios and wired the center pin to the foil that went to the FM IC (capacitor on pcb isolated) and the shield side to dc ground near the IC. I then plugged in a telescoping car antenna and it worked great on the bench . So I installed the antenna on the outside of the boat and the radio inside, now one station I listen to is weak, but if I unplug the antenna and let the center pin touch ground of the connector on the radio it comes in great. Just curious why it is working this way. BTW, the mod did cure the computer hash. Mike Sounds as if the antenna is fed with co-ax and has too much capacitance across the input. Put a trimmer capacitor in series with the centre pin and see if that improves things. Try 2-20 or 5-50pf. -- Best Regards: Baron. |
#4
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FM antenna curiosity
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:22:42 -0500, "amdx" wrote:
So I installed the antenna on the outside of the boat and the radio inside, now one station I listen to is weak, but if I unplug the antenna and let the center pin touch ground of the connector on the radio it comes in great. Just curious why it is working this way. Hi Mike, You moved the antenna. Most loss of signal as you describe comes from not being a weak signal, but the mixture of signals that combine negatively at some spot due to multiple reflections. When you replaced the line cord as antenna for this better implementation, you also found that "sour (not sweet) spot." This can occur for any frequency with the equal likelihood of reflections combining negatively. Move your antenna a quarter wave and see what happens. Your description of your having an aluminum boat almost guarantees a multitude of RF-bright reflections. At short wavelengths, this also guarantees many, many regions that will exhibit destructive (as well as constructive) combinations of those reflections. Put your antenna as far away from the superstructure or hull as possible. This will reduce the reflection path differences. BTW, the mod did cure the computer hash. Mike FM has what is called a "full quieting" effect. It would suggest that your first signal levels were just barely above the level of full quiet (and perhaps not even that good). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#5
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FM antenna curiosity
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:22:42 -0500, "amdx" wrote: So I installed the antenna on the outside of the boat and the radio inside, now one station I listen to is weak, but if I unplug the antenna and let the center pin touch ground of the connector on the radio it comes in great. Just curious why it is working this way. Hi Mike, You moved the antenna. Most loss of signal as you describe comes from not being a weak signal, but the mixture of signals that combine negatively at some spot due to multiple reflections. When you replaced the line cord as antenna for this better implementation, you also found that "sour (not sweet) spot." This can occur for any frequency with the equal likelihood of reflections combining negatively. Move your antenna a quarter wave and see what happens. Your description of your having an aluminum boat almost guarantees a multitude of RF-bright reflections. At short wavelengths, this also guarantees many, many regions that will exhibit destructive (as well as constructive) combinations of those reflections. Put your antenna as far away from the superstructure or hull as possible. This will reduce the reflection path differences. BTW, the mod did cure the computer hash. Mike FM has what is called a "full quieting" effect. It would suggest that your first signal levels were just barely above the level of full quiet (and perhaps not even that good). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Richard, after I read your letter I did a little better checking and found my signal is not weak it is to strong, I'm getting interference from other frequencies. Also I get stations on the wrong frequency. I went out and collapsed the antenna to minimum about 1/3 of what it was and my problem station is perfect and the other station I listen to is still good. The local NPR station isn't good though. But I can download the podcast of Science Friday :-) Thanks, Mike |
#6
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FM antenna curiosity
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:42:15 -0500, "amdx" wrote:
Richard, after I read your letter I did a little better checking and found my signal is not weak it is to strong, I'm getting interference from other frequencies. Also I get stations on the wrong frequency. I went out and collapsed the antenna to minimum about 1/3 of what it was and my problem station is perfect and the other station I listen to is still good. The local NPR station isn't good though. But I can download the podcast of Science Friday :-) Thanks, Mike Hi Mike, Normally, a too strong signal is not a problem with FM as FM literally locks onto the strongest signal and rejects the competitors. This is not a characteristic of the RF wave, but rather the modulation employed. Collapsing your antenna is the same thing as moving it. Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared with the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that). A simple test is to tune into at least two of these off-frequency stations, note what frequency they should be and subtract the frequency where they appear. If you are having image issues (no, this is not a self-help hint), the two or more stations should come up with the same differences. If you come up with the same number, AND you have trouble with interference from adjacent stations (there are guard bands to prevent this), THEN you have one crappy receiver. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#7
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FM antenna curiosity
amdx wrote:
"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:22:42 -0500, "amdx" wrote: So I installed the antenna on the outside of the boat and the radio inside, now one station I listen to is weak, but if I unplug the antenna and let the center pin touch ground of the connector on the radio it comes in great. Just curious why it is working this way. Hi Mike, You moved the antenna. Most loss of signal as you describe comes from not being a weak signal, but the mixture of signals that combine negatively at some spot due to multiple reflections. When you replaced the line cord as antenna for this better implementation, you also found that "sour (not sweet) spot." This can occur for any frequency with the equal likelihood of reflections combining negatively. Move your antenna a quarter wave and see what happens. Your description of your having an aluminum boat almost guarantees a multitude of RF-bright reflections. At short wavelengths, this also guarantees many, many regions that will exhibit destructive (as well as constructive) combinations of those reflections. Put your antenna as far away from the superstructure or hull as possible. This will reduce the reflection path differences. BTW, the mod did cure the computer hash. Mike FM has what is called a "full quieting" effect. It would suggest that your first signal levels were just barely above the level of full quiet (and perhaps not even that good). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Richard, after I read your letter I did a little better checking and found my signal is not weak it is to strong, I'm getting interference from other frequencies. Also I get stations on the wrong frequency. I went out and collapsed the antenna to minimum about 1/3 of what it was and my problem station is perfect and the other station I listen to is still good. The local NPR station isn't good though. But I can download the podcast of Science Friday :-) Thanks, Mike The usual, lousy FM tuner. They don't make'em like they used to. It's the same with television sets, one large signal and they fall off the rocker. If you have a radio with a signal strength meter you could notch out a strong station. But that only works it it's just one and far away from the NPR frequency. The only other options are to get a better radio, a directional antenna, or just live with it and use the podcast. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |
#8
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FM antenna curiosity
Richard Clark wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:42:15 -0500, "amdx" wrote: Richard, after I read your letter I did a little better checking and found my signal is not weak it is to strong, I'm getting interference from other frequencies. Also I get stations on the wrong frequency. I went out and collapsed the antenna to minimum about 1/3 of what it was and my problem station is perfect and the other station I listen to is still good. The local NPR station isn't good though. But I can download the podcast of Science Friday :-) Thanks, Mike Hi Mike, Normally, a too strong signal is not a problem with FM as FM literally locks onto the strongest signal and rejects the competitors. This is not a characteristic of the RF wave, but rather the modulation employed. Collapsing your antenna is the same thing as moving it. Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared with the dinosaurs). ... One solution: Try to get an old Becker car radio. And I mean old, at least 40 year, the first transistorized ones that could still be switched to 6V. They used to be standard issue in Mercedes Benzes. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. |
#9
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FM antenna curiosity
"Joerg" wrote in message ... amdx wrote: "Joerg" wrote in message ... amdx wrote: "Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:22:42 -0500, "amdx" wrote: So I installed the antenna on the outside of the boat and the radio inside, now one station I listen to is weak, but if I unplug the antenna and let the center pin touch ground of the connector on the radio it comes in great. Just curious why it is working this way. Hi Mike, You moved the antenna. Most loss of signal as you describe comes from not being a weak signal, but the mixture of signals that combine negatively at some spot due to multiple reflections. When you replaced the line cord as antenna for this better implementation, you also found that "sour (not sweet) spot." This can occur for any frequency with the equal likelihood of reflections combining negatively. Move your antenna a quarter wave and see what happens. Your description of your having an aluminum boat almost guarantees a multitude of RF-bright reflections. At short wavelengths, this also guarantees many, many regions that will exhibit destructive (as well as constructive) combinations of those reflections. Put your antenna as far away from the superstructure or hull as possible. This will reduce the reflection path differences. BTW, the mod did cure the computer hash. Mike FM has what is called a "full quieting" effect. It would suggest that your first signal levels were just barely above the level of full quiet (and perhaps not even that good). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Richard, after I read your letter I did a little better checking and found my signal is not weak it is to strong, I'm getting interference from other frequencies. Also I get stations on the wrong frequency. I went out and collapsed the antenna to minimum about 1/3 of what it was and my problem station is perfect and the other station I listen to is still good. The local NPR station isn't good though. But I can download the podcast of Science Friday :-) Thanks, Mike The usual, lousy FM tuner. They don't make'em like they used to. It's the same with television sets, one large signal and they fall off the rocker. If you have a radio with a signal strength meter you could notch out a strong station. But that only works it it's just one and far away from the NPR frequency. The only other options are to get a better radio, a directional antenna, or just live with it and use the podcast. -- Regards, Joerg This morning I got on the boat and the signal that was improved to good by shortening the antenna is now bad. 94.5 has interference from 101.1. Oh well! You really need a better quality radio and with radios and a lot of other stuff older = better :-) I mean, considering what the boat must have cost ... Well the boat is a pontoon boat (maybe $6,000) that I run my business from, my wife or I are on the boat 70 hrs a week. The radio was fine when I used the original AC cord antenna, except when I was on my laptop, it caused hash in the audio. That's why I isolated the antenna from the AC, that did eliminate the computer hash. I have put together a car radio and wall wart that I use with a pillow speaker at night. Maybe later I'll put together another one for the boat. Mike |
#10
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FM antenna curiosity
"Richard Clark" Now, as to your experience of receiving signals on the wrong frequency, that is a classic situation of image rejection being poor due to the lack of a tuned front-end (something that dissappeared with the dinosaurs). If I were to guess on the basis of 40 year old experience fixing these suckers, your off-frequency signals are probably shifted by twice the IF frequency of your receiver. The classical FM IF frequency of 10.7 MHz might apply, but time has marched on and designers may select their own. This old standard would argue that you shouldn't experience images except where they would be out-of-band (the 88-107 band with this IF would force that). ** Hearing the same FM station at more than one spot is still possible even with a 10.7 MHz IF frequency - if the signal is very strong. The reason is harmonics of the incoming carrier generated in the RF stage interacting with harmonics of the local oscillator in the mixer. Eg: A 100MHz FM carrier generates a harmonic at 200MHz in the receiver. When the local oscillator is adjusted to 94.65 MHz, its second harmonic is 189.3 MHz. The difference frequency is then 10.7 MHz - so goes through to the FM detector. In this situation, the FM deviation is doubled so the recovered audio will be distorted on loud passages. ..... Phil |
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