Tom Rauch W8JI has added to his home page a discussion about diversity
antennas
As a known authority on antennas he presents interesting insights
regarding my
diversity antenna where I show computer results of different polarity
gains.
His knowledge of antennas is much greater than mine, so if any have
shown an interest in my antenna design it would be worth while to read
Tom's aproach as to what exactly is happening and why
Regards
Art Unwin KB9MZ

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:22:59 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

Tom Rauch W8JI has added to his home page a discussion about diversity
antennas

A link might be helpful:
http://www.w8ji.com/polarization_and_diversity.htm

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:20:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:22:59 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

Tom Rauch W8JI has added to his home page a discussion about diversity
antennas

A link might be helpful:
http://www.w8ji.com/polarization_and_diversity.htm

That page is a ramble.

Example: Can someone tell me which line number offers the meaning for
Diversity? I am not interested in interpretations of Tom, nor
abstractions culled together from disjoint statements. I want to know
where (literally, not figuratively) Tom defines what Diversity is.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:40:22 -0700, Richard Clark
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:20:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:22:59 -0700 (PDT), Art Unwin
wrote:

Tom Rauch W8JI has added to his home page a discussion about diversity
antennas

A link might be helpful:
http://www.w8ji.com/polarization_and_diversity.htm

That page is a ramble.

I don't think it was intended to be much more than a discussion of a
specific type of single antenna diversity reception plus something
about stereo-like diversity.

Example: Can someone tell me which line number offers the meaning for
Diversity?

A link to the Wikipedia page would probably have been sufficient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_scheme
The problem is that NONE of the diversity schemes mentioned in the
Wikipedia article apply to the single antenna example under
discussion. In my never humble opinion, there's no way to provide any
form of diversity reception improvement with a single antenna, unless
one also has two feeds, going to two different receivers, and ending
in either a decision switch, or some form of intelligent combiner.

I am not interested in interpretations of Tom, nor
abstractions culled together from disjoint statements.

How about my definition? No matter which scheme is used, a diversity
reception scheme must demonstrate an improvement in availability, BER,
or SNR over a single antenna, or it's not really diversity.

I want to know
where (literally, not figuratively) Tom defines what Diversity is.

He doesn't.

I'm rather confused as to his "stereo diversity" which I guess uses
the listeners ears and brain as the decision switch or decoder. I
think he might be referring to a direct conversion receiver where one
channel is quadrature leading and the other is quadrature lagging,
resulting in a stereo-like effect.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:04:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Example: Can someone tell me which line number offers the meaning for
Diversity?

A link to the Wikipedia page would probably have been sufficient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_scheme
The problem is that NONE of the diversity schemes mentioned in the
Wikipedia article apply to the single antenna example under
discussion.

So, this is an example of a "straw man" argument (not yours, Tom's): a
solution to a problem that is undefined. There are, thus, many
solutions that none can refute and why Tom's is the sine qua non is
built on a foundation of sand.

In my never humble opinion, there's no way to provide any
form of diversity reception improvement with a single antenna, unless
one also has two feeds, going to two different receivers, and ending
in either a decision switch, or some form of intelligent combiner.

Well, to Tom's credit, there is ample discussion of that - but that
discussion does not answer the question, which means there is no way
to test for validity.

I am not interested in interpretations of Tom, nor
abstractions culled together from disjoint statements.

How about my definition?

Sorry, Jeff, but unless you are the author of the Wikipedia reference,
I cannot answer your question.

No matter which scheme is used, a diversity
reception scheme must demonstrate an improvement in availability, BER,
or SNR over a single antenna, or it's not really diversity.

I presume the statement above is your definition. Reducing S+N/N
satisfies what you call diversity and provides an example of a
self-referential definition in that you appeal to with "SNR." Self
referential definitions are logical nulls. In other words, does
increasing capture area qualify as diversity for a single antenna? If
so, diversity means less noise or a better signal in comparison. What
is diverse about ordinary directivity? What is the profit in having
two words describe the same thing?

Even with an informal presumption of the meaning of diversity, we can
both agree that diversity is not also directivity.

Or perhaps it is that, and with one characteristic more. This returns
us to the question with some refinement: what is diversity in the face
of directivity? I have a hunch directivity is a distraction, but that
returns us to the original question.

I want to know
where (literally, not figuratively) Tom defines what Diversity is.

He doesn't.

I didn't think so and I was asking because I didn't consider it worth
the effort to search for something so obscured by the baggage of
peripheral discussion.

I'm rather confused as to his "stereo diversity" which I guess uses
the listeners ears and brain as the decision switch or decoder. I
think he might be referring to a direct conversion receiver where one
channel is quadrature leading and the other is quadrature lagging,
resulting in a stereo-like effect.

I will admit this was my interpretation too. Strange how you have to
sift the diamonds out of the horse-****. I had worked in this field
and built quadrature detectors 40 years ago to the same ends as you
describe. Analog TV color detection had been doing it for at least 20
years before that. I suppose there is a metaphor of diversity there,
but it came with the subject of quadrature detection as a solution,
not as a recent invention.

The quad detector is a direct conversion receiver as you say.

For other readers:
The signal is split through two channels each mixed with the same
base-band source, with one feed of the source shifted 90 degrees for
one channel. I suppose here we could drop the input splitter and
simply feed in two antenna drives. The separate mixer outputs feed
separate headphone elements (the classic application way back then)
and the brain perceives the signal as existing in a literal 2D
(binaural) space. The consequence of this perception is a heightened
ability to discriminate one signal from the rest within the bandpass
of reception. The bandpass is perceived as a physical left-to-right
space and because the classic application was through headphones, this
space was also between the ears. For the modern reader, this was like
having a spectrum analyzer in your head.

This is the classic situation of being able to listen to one
conversation in a crowded room full of speakers (the cocktail party
problem) without becoming overwhelmed by overlapping dialog. A simple
test is when you tune to the signal of interest, any off-frequency
signals are perceived as inhabiting this 2D space at a literal
off-center. As no two transmissions occupy the exact same frequency
(Tom explicitly mentions errors as small as a quarter Hertz), then
they lose being at the center of attention. The brain supplies a huge
computational engine that computers have yet to match.

The topic of Quad detection is cool in its own right, but I don't see
how tarting it up with the discussion of Diversity (especially when
the term is one of dim provenance) really adds anything. Quad
detection read more like window dressing than the clincher to the
topic at hand.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

A link to the Wikipedia page would probably have been sufficient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_scheme
The problem is that NONE of the diversity schemes mentioned in the
Wikipedia article apply to the single antenna example under
discussion. In my never humble opinion, there's no way to provide any
form of diversity reception improvement with a single antenna, unless
one also has two feeds, going to two different receivers, and ending
in either a decision switch, or some form of intelligent combiner.


Trying to wrap my mind around this...

I wouldn't know how splitting the signal to two receivers would work.
The issue arises at the antenna doesn't it?

Indeed, if a single wire antenna would work for diversity reception,
wouldn't it then follow that you would not have to use diversity
reception? The signal would already be there for you.

Seems like a simple test could answer this one.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Michael Coslo wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

A link to the Wikipedia page would probably have been sufficient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_scheme
The problem is that NONE of the diversity schemes mentioned in the
Wikipedia article apply to the single antenna example under
discussion. In my never humble opinion, there's no way to provide any
form of diversity reception improvement with a single antenna, unless
one also has two feeds, going to two different receivers, and ending
in either a decision switch, or some form of intelligent combiner.


Trying to wrap my mind around this...

I wouldn't know how splitting the signal to two receivers would work.
The issue arises at the antenna doesn't it?

Indeed, if a single wire antenna would work for diversity reception,
wouldn't it then follow that you would not have to use diversity
reception? The signal would already be there for you.

Seems like a simple test could answer this one.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Depends on how you define "work".

The only scenario I can think of would be if the received frequency was
changing slightly for some reason and the two receivers were on slightly
different frequencies.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

On Apr 28, 1:53*pm, Michael Coslo wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
A link to the Wikipedia page would probably have been sufficient:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_scheme
The problem is that NONE of the diversity schemes mentioned in the
Wikipedia article apply to the single antenna example under
discussion. *In my never humble opinion, there's no way to provide any
form of diversity reception improvement with a single antenna, unless
one also has two feeds, going to two different receivers, and ending
in either a decision switch, or some form of intelligent combiner. *

Trying to wrap my mind around this...

I wouldn't know how splitting the signal to two receivers would work.
The issue arises at the antenna doesn't it?

Indeed, if a single wire antenna would work for diversity reception,
wouldn't it then follow that you would not have to use diversity
reception? The signal would already be there for you.

Seems like a simple test could answer this one.

* * * * - 73 de Mike N3LI -

I think the first place to start is to what the actual antenna pattern
represents in terms of polarity.
For instance, we have two vectors outside the earths boundary thus you
must have two vectors inside the arbitrary boundary. Obviously the
gravity vector will be at right angles to the earths surface. The
other vector representing the rotation of the earth will naturally be
an circular pattern which is the "saucer" pattern portion of the
overall pattern, which is what hams mainly use. Thus we have to make
the first determination as being what each portion of the pattern
represents in terms of polarity, the centre being straight plume field
and the bottom circular field which is a rotational vector. Since they
are in vector form we can see them as a stream of particles where the
two vectors will be additive. It is only then that the problem of
different or the same phase factors can be ascertained. Definitions
applied can be approach later. Personally, I view the gravity vector
as linear with the other providing a wobberly helical vector i.e
circular. but varying angles to the earths surface. Other thinkers
will surely disagree, if only to fight over near field over far field!

On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:53:09 -0400, Michael Coslo
wrote:

I wouldn't know how splitting the signal to two receivers would work.
The issue arises at the antenna doesn't it?

Ah! The nut of the problem.

To my knowledge, diversity forces you to find the signal elsewhere,
not in the same spot because it isn't there anymore, or at least not
in the same polarization. This last diversity (polarization) is but
one of many. It may be solved at the antenna that features multiple
polarization capability - here Tom's ramble throws EZNEC against the
wall to see what sticks, and he introduces new issues that distract.

There is space diversity, time diversity, phase diversity, frequency
diversity (and there are more if we consider more modulations) and all
we get is the all encompassing "diversity" being hung out to dry.

The distractions that I see discussed are problems of combining
signal, not in finding signal. Interesting problem there, but hardly
something noted to being an issue with an antenna. Someone will
correct my misapprehension in this thread if there is one.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
"In my never humble opinion, there`s no way to provide any form of
diversity reception improvement with a single antenna, unless one also
uses two feeds, going to different receivers, and ending in either a
decision awitch or an intelligent combiner."

That is my experience too. Space diversity requires 2 or more antennas
and receivers. One antenna can serve separate receivers which are
connected to cross-polarized feeds using a single reflector for
polarization diversity.
Or, multiple receivers can be used on a single receiving antenna, but
transmission of more than one copy of the desired signal is required,
This is how frequency diversity is usually achieved. Two copies of the
same program may be modulated on the same carrier if it is shown that
the medium treats the sidebands differently so that when one is treated
badly the other may be solid. I`ve seen this done with selection of
upper or lower sideband from a double sideband transmission.

Best regards, Richard harrison, KB5WZI