Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

Hi, Folks.

Looking for some advice.

I want to create a grounded opening in the wall of my ham shack through
which I'll install each rf cable that enters the shack. I plan to bolt a
conductive plate to the wall ground that I'll fasten the ground side of each
coaxial cable to, then bolt a ground cable to each ground rod and the plate.

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel ground
rods and copper to create an rf gound? The copper ones are more than double
the price - is it worth using them?

Thanks, Bob, VE7HS

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel ground
rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

I used one 10 ft. copper clad steel ground rod and three 10 ft. copper
pipes. The pipes had 1/4 inch holes
drilled randomly throughout the bottom six feet and allowed me to annually
pour an epsom salt solution through them to enhance
ground conductivity. One copper pipe was set about 6 inches away from the
paired copper clad steel -- this
enabled the salt solution to salt the region of both. The two sets were
about ten feet apart and joined together
with heavy copper clad steel wire (Silver soldered). . To one set I attached
a number of random length radials running across the
yard (along two fence lines) and around the side of the house. They gave me
a real good ground as far as I
was concerned. Due to illness I recently sold the house, and extracted the
ground system. Surprisingly there was
little if any degredation of the metal elements -- that was after 27 years
in the ground! Both the copper clad steel
rod and the copper pipes were in good shape. Copper is expensive, but it
lasted a long time and took the
worry about whether I had a good ground away.

To install the copper pipes, I first drove in the copper clad steel rod,
then drew it out of the ground with
a car jack and inserted the copper pipes in the resultant holes.

To make the job easy, I had a young ham use a sledgehammer to drive the
copper clad steel pipe into
the ground and jack it back out -- three times! For the fourth hole I did
not have to extract the rod -- it
was left in place.

I'm no engineer, and never did any ground testing (whatever that involved),
but I was totally satisfied
with the system. Do it once right amd then don't worry about it!

Irv VE6BP





"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground
rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Fri, 28 May 2010 11:17:28 -0600, "Irv Finkleman"
wrote:

I'm no engineer, and never did any ground testing (whatever that involved),

Hi Irv,

In fact you had the perfect opportunity to do simple but effective
test through a classic three electrode measurement.

You perform the test three times by rotation among the three
electrodes. You apply a HIGH voltage across the two most distant
electrodes, measure that current, and measure the potential difference
to the third, middle electrode. You must us a high voltage to
overcome local ground currents and any cathodic action. 50 or more
volts is enough.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.

Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.

Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?

Thanks, Bob

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Sat, 29 May 2010 17:04:16 -0700, Robert Smits
wrote:

Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?

Hi Bob,

If by "this" you mean the three rods, then they will NOT make an RF
ground.

Of necessity due to wavelength, your ground must be spread out (not
buried) to one quarter wavelength. For 160M, your radials (not ground
rods), should extend 40 meters from your radiator.

Classically, you would need 120 radials for an RF ground.

Classicism and practical reality diverge, so there are variations on
all of this EXCEPT ground rods do not make an RF ground.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

In article ,
Robert Smits wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.

Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.

Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?

Thanks, Bob

A lot of folks, make the same mistake, in thinking that Electrical
Ground and RF Ground are the same thing. They, clearly, are NOT, the
same thing or even close to the same thing, unless you happen to be
living on a Salt Marsh. Ground Rods, of any kind, are only Electrical
Grounds. Rf Grounding is a Totally Different bag of cats. RF Grounds
need to be engineered, by someone who is familiar with Antenna Design
and Installation Procedures, for the particular Antenna and landscape,
where the antenna is to be installed.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

In article ,
Richard Clark wrote:

Of necessity due to wavelength, your ground must be spread out (not
buried) to one quarter wavelength.

Richard-

I have a steel well pipe that is approximately a quarter wave on 40
Meters. Even though it is buried, why wouldn't this work as the bottom
half of a vertical dipole?

I tried it with a mobile whip as the vertical element. It worked better
than I expected, but not really well.

Fred
K4DII

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Mon, 31 May 2010 00:33:00 -0400, Fred McKenzie
wrote:

I have a steel well pipe that is approximately a quarter wave on 40
Meters. Even though it is buried, why wouldn't this work as the bottom
half of a vertical dipole?

Hi Fred,

One perspective of the radial field is that it shields the radiator
from the loss of ground. However, that simplification disguises the
fact that the radials radiate too - and unproductively. When every
radial's radiation is taken into consideration, opposite radials (each
one that is 180 degrees from the other) cancel.

That aside, their benefit is they conduct better than dirt. What this
means is more power goes into copper/steel instead.

Now, if we consider your well pipe, it goes deeper into that lossy
dirt and the deeper it goes, the more dirt the return signal (to the
other, the vertical radiator) has to go through. More loss than use.

OK, another reason. For as poor/well as dirt may conduct, it too has
skin effect. This means at some distance into the dirt, conductivity
plummets because of skin effect. Deeper yet, and the skin effect loss
increases at a quick clip.

As skin effect is frequency dependent, at really low frequencies, your
well pipe has some advantage. This frequency range is suitable for
working lightning whose top end is 1MHz. At 7 MHz, there's no point.

I tried it with a mobile whip as the vertical element. It worked better
than I expected, but not really well.

Which shows you how crummy the whip is because what well pipe there
was that was above ground was doing the job of the whip.

Step back and look at the big picture using your analogy of a vertical
dipole with half of it buried. Now, convert that buried half into
multistrand. Bend each strand 90 degrees so that each strand just
rides an inch or two above ground with all of the newly bent strands
in a flat circular spray around the upper half. Walla! as the French
say.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

It appears that you are a masochist [to yourself] or a sadist [to the kid you had use a sledgehammer !!! There is a much, much easier device, to place ground rods in place. It's called a 'Water Drill'. You use typically 3/4" galvanized steel pipe of the appropriate length {couple lengths together, as needed}, add a 1' 2' section at a right angle to the main vertical length, for rotational/insertion/extraction leverage. On the end of the short piece, add a female hose [with a water shut-off] to pipe adapter. On the vertical pipe, add a older style adjustable brass spray nozzle. You usually want a forceful stream. Simply place the nozzle end where you desire to begin a hole for the ground rod. Turn on the water (wear a raincoat/wetsuit, if you like), and apply slight downward pressure. You may need to alternately extract and reinsert, to allow dirt, from the hole being drilled, to escape.

This procedure, very possibly, may not work in VE6 land; in the wintertime. Where I live, I can drill a hole in usually less than 5 minutes, and drop in the ground rod shortly thereafter.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On May 30, 5:00*pm, You wrote:
In article ,
*Robert Smits wrote:



Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. *No difference whatever;
B. *Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.

Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.

Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?

Thanks, Bob

A lot of folks, make the same mistake, in thinking that Electrical
Ground and RF Ground are the same thing. They, clearly, are NOT, the
same thing or even close to the same thing, unless you happen to be
living on a Salt Marsh. Ground Rods, of any kind, are only Electrical
Grounds. Rf Grounding is a Totally Different bag of cats. RF Grounds
need to be engineered, by someone who is familiar with Antenna Design
and Installation Procedures, for the particular Antenna and landscape,
where the antenna is to be installed.

define "rf ground".

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"K1TTT" wrote in message
...
On May 30, 5:00 pm, You wrote:
In article ,
Robert Smits wrote:



Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.

Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be
bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.

Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?

Thanks, Bob

A lot of folks, make the same mistake, in thinking that Electrical
Ground and RF Ground are the same thing. They, clearly, are NOT, the
same thing or even close to the same thing, unless you happen to be
living on a Salt Marsh. Ground Rods, of any kind, are only Electrical
Grounds. Rf Grounding is a Totally Different bag of cats. RF Grounds
need to be engineered, by someone who is familiar with Antenna Design
and Installation Procedures, for the particular Antenna and landscape,
where the antenna is to be installed.

define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 20, 3:14*pm, "Pete Bertini" wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote in message

...
On May 30, 5:00 pm, You wrote:



In article ,
Robert Smits wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.

Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be
bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.

Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?

Thanks, Bob

A lot of folks, make the same mistake, in thinking that Electrical
Ground and RF Ground are the same thing. They, clearly, are NOT, the
same thing or even close to the same thing, unless you happen to be
living on a Salt Marsh. Ground Rods, of any kind, are only Electrical
Grounds. Rf Grounding is a Totally Different bag of cats. RF Grounds
need to be engineered, by someone who is familiar with Antenna Design
and Installation Procedures, for the particular Antenna and landscape,
where the antenna is to be installed.

define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

the ground radiates? that's interesting.

so the raised radials on my 80m 4-square would be considered an rf
ground?

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"K1TTT" wrote in message
...
On Jun 20, 3:14 pm, "Pete Bertini" wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote in message

...
On May 30, 5:00 pm, You wrote:



In article ,
Robert Smits wrote:

Richard Clark wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits
wrote:

Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?

Hi Bob,

Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.

Updates will follow this brief announcement.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.

Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding
my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be
bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.

Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?

Thanks, Bob

A lot of folks, make the same mistake, in thinking that Electrical
Ground and RF Ground are the same thing. They, clearly, are NOT, the
same thing or even close to the same thing, unless you happen to be
living on a Salt Marsh. Ground Rods, of any kind, are only Electrical
Grounds. Rf Grounding is a Totally Different bag of cats. RF Grounds
need to be engineered, by someone who is familiar with Antenna Design
and Installation Procedures, for the particular Antenna and landscape,
where the antenna is to be installed.

define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

the ground radiates? that's interesting.

so the raised radials on my 80m 4-square would be considered an rf
ground?

I would consider them to be an effective RF ground at their 1/4
wave resonant points, just as would a tuned artificial RF ground
used for stations at elevated locations.

Pete

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 20, 3:14 pm, "Pete Bertini" wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote in message

...
On May 30, 5:00 pm, You wrote:



In article ,
Robert Smits wrote:
Richard Clark wrote:
On Thu, 27 May 2010 17:36:41 -0700, Bob Smits wrote:
Is there a significant difference between using the galvanized steel
ground rods and copper to create an rf gound?
Hi Bob,
Two answers for that:
1. No difference whatever;
B. Neither make an RF ground.
Updates will follow this brief announcement.
73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC
Looks like my follow up post didn't make it through.
Richard I intend these three ground rods to be the start of grounding my
station, not as a counterpoise for one of my antennas. These will be
bonded
to my radios and the electrical service entrance ground.
Why do you say this does not make an RF ground?
Thanks, Bob
A lot of folks, make the same mistake, in thinking that Electrical
Ground and RF Ground are the same thing. They, clearly, are NOT, the
same thing or even close to the same thing, unless you happen to be
living on a Salt Marsh. Ground Rods, of any kind, are only Electrical
Grounds. Rf Grounding is a Totally Different bag of cats. RF Grounds
need to be engineered, by someone who is familiar with Antenna Design
and Installation Procedures, for the particular Antenna and landscape,
where the antenna is to be installed.
define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

the ground radiates? that's interesting.

so the raised radials on my 80m 4-square would be considered an rf
ground?

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

- 73 de Mike N3LI -

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"Michael Coslo" wrote
...

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 21, 5:24*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Michael Coslo" ...



We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.
S*

no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

In article ,
"Pete Bertini" wrote:

define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

the ground radiates? that's interesting.

so the raised radials on my 80m 4-square would be considered an rf
ground?

I would consider them to be an effective RF ground at their 1/4
wave resonant points, just as would a tuned artificial RF ground
used for stations at elevated locations.

Pete

Actually, a "GOOD" RF Ground will exhibit a very LOW Impedance across a
broad Frequency Spectrum, and NOT just at any single Frequency.... When
designing an RF Grounding System for a particular Site/Antenna System,
it is almost as important to know the Frequencies, and Bandwidths, to be
transmitted on, as it is to know the practical design of the Antenna
itself. Earth Conductivity has a much smaller effect than most folks
think.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"You" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Pete Bertini" wrote:

define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

the ground radiates? that's interesting.

so the raised radials on my 80m 4-square would be considered an rf
ground?

I would consider them to be an effective RF ground at their 1/4
wave resonant points, just as would a tuned artificial RF ground
used for stations at elevated locations.

Pete

Actually, a "GOOD" RF Ground will exhibit a very LOW Impedance across a
broad Frequency Spectrum, and NOT just at any single Frequency.... When
designing an RF Grounding System for a particular Site/Antenna System,
it is almost as important to know the Frequencies, and Bandwidths, to be
transmitted on, as it is to know the practical design of the Antenna
itself. Earth Conductivity has a much smaller effect than most folks
think.

Oh dear. What does this say about "Artificial RF Grounds?"
For that matter, is a tuned "artificial RF ground" a real "ground" or part
of the antenna's radiation system?

Pete

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 21, 10:30*pm, "Pete Bertini" wrote:
"You" wrote in message

...



In article ,
"Pete Bertini" wrote:

define "rf ground".

Something that provides a counterpoise for an unbalanced feedline
situation that doesn't result in RF energy being wasted to heat
earthworms, soil, etc. and radiates RF energy efficiently.

the ground radiates? *that's interesting.

so the raised radials on my 80m 4-square would be considered an rf
ground?

I would consider them to be an effective RF ground at their 1/4
wave resonant points, just as would a tuned artificial RF ground
used for stations at elevated locations.

Pete

Actually, a "GOOD" RF Ground will exhibit a very LOW Impedance across a
broad Frequency Spectrum, and NOT just at any single Frequency.... When
designing an RF Grounding System for a particular Site/Antenna System,
it is almost as important to know the Frequencies, and Bandwidths, to be
transmitted on, as it is to know the practical design of the Antenna
itself. Earth Conductivity has a much smaller effect than most folks
think.

Oh dear. What does this say about "Artificial RF Grounds?"
For that matter, is a tuned "artificial RF ground" a real *"ground" or part
of the antenna's radiation system?

Pete

its part of the 'system' but radiating or not can be debated.

There are a couple problems when talking about RF Grounds.

You can not equalize the rf voltage over anything that is an
appreciable fraction of a wavelength using any type or combination of
rods, radials, screens, or rings... it just ain't possible. any
ground system other than the fictional 'perfect' ground will have a
pattern of voltage peaks and nulls much like standing waves in 2 or 3
dimensions. therefor you can not call any particular point on the
ground system 'ground' for purposes of voltage measurements... nor can
you trust any particular point to be equal to any other point, so you
can get rf burns while standing on a 'ground' screen and touching a
coax shield or neutral or 'ground' power cable.

The whole purpose of the 'artificial' ground is to force one of the
voltage nulls to be where it will do the most good... if that means
you have problems with rf getting into your computer keyboard, or get
burnt by the mic when you swallow it, you can 'tune' the ground to
cancel out that effect locally... of course that means that there will
be changes in other places that may cause other problems, but at least
you won't get burned.

Now, on to the 'rf ground' as it applies to something you build under
a vertical radiator.... sorry, this will have to wait... just sleep
on currents going up the vertical having to be equal and opposite all
the currents flowing back into the shield side of the coax... no
matter where they come from, and imagine all the chances for currents
to be where you don't want them.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Michael Coslo"
...

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is
the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.

no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.

The simple radio do not work without the ground:
http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/r...ansmitter.html

"Without any connection to an antenna or a good ground connection, the
transmitter will only transmit to a receiver a few inches away. To get
better range, clip the ground wire to a good ground, such as a cold water
pipe, and the antenna to a long wire, like the one we used for the crystal
radio."

Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?

The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 22, 7:44*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"Michael Coslo"
...

We should define "ground" while we're at it.

If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is
the
source of them.

The lovers of the TEM will write more.
no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.

The simple radio do not work without the ground:http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/r...ansmitter.html

"Without any connection to an antenna or a good ground connection, the
transmitter will only transmit to a receiver a few inches away. To get
better range, clip the ground wire to a good ground, such as a cold water
pipe, and the antenna to a long wire, like the one we used for the crystal
radio."

well, it works as they say it will only go a few inches because the
antenna is probably only a couple inches long at some low frequency...
once you give it a decent antenna it will work much better.



Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?

sure.


The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"
S*

field emission is not likely at amateur power levels.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 22, 7:44 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"Michael Coslo"
...
We should define "ground" while we're at it.
If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground is
the
source of them.
The lovers of the TEM will write more.
no one loves them more than you, so spew away if you wish.
The simple radio do not work without the ground:http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/r...ansmitter.html

"Without any connection to an antenna or a good ground connection, the
transmitter will only transmit to a receiver a few inches away. To get
better range, clip the ground wire to a good ground, such as a cold water
pipe, and the antenna to a long wire, like the one we used for the crystal
radio."

well, it works as they say it will only go a few inches because the
antenna is probably only a couple inches long at some low frequency...
once you give it a decent antenna it will work much better.


Having built one of these things or very similar (or more properly, my
tween daughter did)..

Hook a 6-10 foot long piece of wire to each of the clips and stretch
them out and it works pretty well. In my case, we threw a hunk
(precision measurement.. probably about 10 ft) of wire over the curtain
rod, and laid the other one out across the floor, transmitter sitting on
the desk. You could receive it on a standard AM BC radio with a ferrite
loopstick antenna at the other end of the house, some 15m/50 ft away.

The idea of using a 1MHz clock oscillator *is* clever. Back in the day,
I would have lashed up something with a single transistor and a LC tank.

BTW, the same general idea works pretty well with a 14.318 MHz
oscillator.. A 1 meter antenna makes a fine beacon signal right in the
20m band. Of course, you'll ID, operate within your license terms, etc.
In theory, if you could get it to swing 5V, you could put a couple
hundred milliwatts into a dipole, but I don't think they have that much
drive available.

I confess I haven't tried AM with the 14.318 oscillator..It probably has
some non-zero frequency pulling too.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

Uzytkownik "Jim Lux" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"Michael Coslo"
...
We should define "ground" while we're at it.
If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground
is
the
source of them.

Having built one of these things or very similar (or more properly, my
tween daughter did)..

Hook a 6-10 foot long piece of wire to each of the clips and stretch them
out and it works pretty well. In my case, we threw a hunk (precision
measurement.. probably about 10 ft) of wire over the curtain rod, and laid
the other one out across the floor, transmitter sitting on the desk.

The "other one out across the floor" works as the chassis.
The chassis is enough for the small power at higher frequencies.
Your phone cell has the chssis (ground) also.
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Jun 22, 7:44 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?

sure.


The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can
happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"

field emission is not likely at amateur power levels.

" Transmitters for long and medium wave require good grounding and soil of
high electrical conductivity. Locations at the sea or in river valleys are
ideal, but the flood danger must be considered. Transmitters for UHF are
best on high mountains to improve the range ".

So I look he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Uzytkownik "Jim Lux" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Jun 21, 5:24 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Michael Coslo"
...
We should define "ground" while we're at it.
If antenna emits electrons (longitudinal Tesla waves) than the ground
is
the
source of them.
Having built one of these things or very similar (or more properly, my
tween daughter did)..

Hook a 6-10 foot long piece of wire to each of the clips and stretch them
out and it works pretty well. In my case, we threw a hunk (precision
measurement.. probably about 10 ft) of wire over the curtain rod, and laid
the other one out across the floor, transmitter sitting on the desk.

The "other one out across the floor" works as the chassis.
The chassis is enough for the small power at higher frequencies.
Your phone cell has the chssis (ground) also.
S*


yeah.. but at 1 MHz ish... a bit of length helps a lot.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote

So I look he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*


No.. it's plain old corona discharge or triboelectric charging from
particulates

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 23, 8:12*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 22, 7:44 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:



Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track ground-antenna?
sure.

The field emisssion probably works in an antenna: "Field emission can
happen
from solid and liquid surfaces, or individual atoms into vacuum or open
air,"
field emission is not likely at amateur power levels.

" Transmitters for long and medium wave require good grounding and soil of
high electrical conductivity. Locations at the sea or in river valleys are
ideal, but the flood danger must be considered. Transmitters for UHF are
best on high mountains to improve the range ".


no they don't... those types of transmitters work just fine in
airplanes with no soil available.


So I look hehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the
atmosphere. also partly due to the fair weather electric field:
http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Jun 23, 8:12 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track
ground-antenna?
sure.


" Transmitters for long and medium wave require good grounding and soil
of
high electrical conductivity. Locations at the sea or in river valleys
are
ideal, but the flood danger must be considered. Transmitters for UHF are
best on high mountains to improve the range ".


no they don't... those types of transmitters work just fine in
airplanes with no soil available.

In the airplanes is the "chassis ground". The large metal surface is the
charge source. The surface exchanges charges with the air.


. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?

loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the
atmosphere. also partly due to the fair weather electric field:
http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

In a short period of time the atmospheric conditions are similar.

I am asking for measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same atmospheric
conditions.
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"Jim Lux" wrote
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote

So I look he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to
high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*


No.. it's plain old corona discharge or triboelectric charging from
particulates

"Static electrical charge can build up to high values".

It take place during transmmiting.
Without grounding do not work.

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Do you know it in your station?
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"Jim Lux" wrote
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
"K1TTT" wrote
So I look he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to
high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

No.. it's plain old corona discharge or triboelectric charging from
particulates

"Static electrical charge can build up to high values".

It take place during transmmiting.
Without grounding do not work.

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".


Would that be the so-called "fair weather current" about 1 pA/square meter?

Obviously, a big metal tower is going to perturb the local field, so a
tower with a cross section of 1 square meter is going to have a current
a lot bigger than 1pA.

But probably not microamps.

OTOH, a big tower could have substantial capacitance to ground.. I don't
recall off hand what the capacitance of a isolated cylinder is..
I seem to recall that for a rod with lengthdiameter, it's something
like 50pF/meter.

So, a 100 m tower will be 5000 pF.

Say the current is 1000 pA.

In one second, the voltage would be 1E-9/5E-9 = 0.2V

In a minute, 30V
In 10 minutes, 300V..

etc

Probably not enough to charge to voltages quickly enough to be a problem.

Tribocharging from dust and other particulates blowing in the wind is a
LOT faster and a bigger problem.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 24, 7:53*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 23, 8:12 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:



Is it possible to measure the netto current in the track
ground-antenna?
sure.

" Transmitters for long and medium wave require good grounding and soil
of
high electrical conductivity. Locations at the sea or in river valleys
are
ideal, but the flood danger must be considered. Transmitters for UHF are
best on high mountains to improve the range ".

no they don't... those types of transmitters work just fine in

airplanes with no soil available.

In the airplanes is the "chassis ground". The large metal surface is the
charge source. The surface exchanges charges with the air.

not nearly large enough, nor necessary.


. Static electrical charge can build up to high
values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures
are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the

atmosphere. *also partly due to the fair weather electric field:http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

In a short period of time the atmospheric conditions are similar.

I am asking for *measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 24, 8:38*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"Jim Lux" ...



Szczepan Bialek wrote:
*"K1TTT" wrote

So I look hehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_mast

"This technique works by applying a DC ground at a point of minimum
radiofrequency voltage, conducting static charge to ground without
diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up to
high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground."

Would be interesting to know the value of the DC current.

Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
S*

No.. it's plain old corona discharge or triboelectric charging from
particulates

"Static electrical charge can build up to high *values".

It take place during transmmiting.
Without grounding do not work.

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Do you know it in your station?
S*

there is no static build up while transmitting from an antenna
isolated from ground. easily measured and proved here every day.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On 6/24/2010 3:56 PM, K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:53 am, "Szczepan wrote:
Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the

atmosphere. also partly due to the fair weather electric field:http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

In a short period of time the atmospheric conditions are similar.

I am asking for measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.


He has yet to wonder how satellites could transmit very long. After
all, there would come a point in time where the charge would be so high
on the vacuum insulated satellite that it could perform his field
emission any longer.

It should be easy to observe as the signal strength would decrease with
time. I haven't noticed that effect myself, nor has anyone else.

tom
K0TAR

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On 6/24/2010 7:25 PM, tom wrote:
On 6/24/2010 3:56 PM, K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:53 am, "Szczepan wrote:
Do you agree that it is the field emission (loss of electrons)?
loss of electrons maybe, but due to friction with particulates in the

atmosphere. also partly due to the fair weather electric
field:http://www.missioninstruments.com/pa...ec_fields.html

In a short period of time the atmospheric conditions are similar.

I am asking for measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same
atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.


He has yet to wonder how satellites could transmit very long. After all,
there would come a point in time where the charge would be so high on
the vacuum insulated satellite that it could perform his field emission

Oops should read "could NOT perform".

tom
K0TAR

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Jun 24, 8:38 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Do you know it in your station?

there is no static build up while transmitting from an antenna
isolated from ground. easily measured and proved here every day.

See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
" In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential."

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

" no static build up while transmitting " because your station has ground.
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"tom" wrote
. net...
On 6/24/2010 3:56 PM, K1TTT wrote:
On Jun 24, 7:53 am, "Szczepan wrote:

I am asking for measurement of the netto current in the track
ground-antenna.
The two measurements: before and during transmitting in the same
atmospheric
conditions.
S*

net current = 0.


He has yet to wonder how satellites could transmit very long. After all,
there would come a point in time where the charge would be so high on the
vacuum insulated satellite

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

that it could perform his field emission any longer.

In the vacuum is the rare plasma. The are free charges.

It should be easy to observe as the signal strength would decrease with
time. I haven't noticed that effect myself, nor has anyone else.

Are you sure?
Each ground must be large enough. Engineers know what to do.
Sometimes they water the ground area.

In the space the chassis must be large enough.
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

"Jim Lux" wrote
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Static electrical charge can build up to high values".

It take place during transmmiting.
Without grounding do not work.

I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Would that be the so-called "fair weather current" about 1 pA/square
meter?

It is flowing all the time. We are interesting in the transmissing time.

Obviously, a big metal tower is going to perturb the local field, so a
tower with a cross section of 1 square meter is going to have a current a
lot bigger than 1pA.

But probably not microamps.

OTOH, a big tower could have substantial capacitance to ground.. I don't
recall off hand what the capacitance of a isolated cylinder is..
I seem to recall that for a rod with lengthdiameter, it's something like
50pF/meter.

So, a 100 m tower will be 5000 pF.

Say the current is 1000 pA.

In one second, the voltage would be 1E-9/5E-9 = 0.2V

In a minute, 30V
In 10 minutes, 300V..

etc

It is a free energy .

Probably not enough to charge to voltages quickly enough to be a problem.

Tribocharging from dust and other particulates blowing in the wind is a
LOT faster and a bigger problem.

It works in the both directions. Charged tower lose charges.
S*

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

On Jun 25, 7:24*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Jun 24, 8:38 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:



I simply want to know "the value of the DC current".

Do you know it in your station?
there is no static build up while transmitting from an antenna

isolated from ground. *easily measured and proved here every day.

See;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
" In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential."

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

" no static build up while transmitting " because your station has ground..
S*

you are almost as much fun as art with his magical levitating
neutrinos.

no, i have antennas that are isolated from ground. they are fed
through a capacitor that prevents the charge from flowing to ground
and they do not get charged over time. i know this because when a
thunderstorm is nearby they build up enough charge to arc over the
capacitor. if there was charge being constantly emitted when they are
transmitting the capacitor would arc all the time.

Galvanized or Copper Gound Rods?
 

Uzytkownik "K1TTT" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Jun 25, 7:24 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)
" In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential."

"The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common
return
path for current from many different components in the circuit."

" no static build up while transmitting " because your station has
ground.
S*

you are almost as much fun as art with his magical levitating
neutrinos.

I am as much fun like Tesla, the father of radio.

no, i have antennas that are isolated from ground. they are fed
through a capacitor that prevents the charge from flowing to ground

Your station produces asymetrical pulses. The all real waves are not
symmetrical. The insulator in the capacitor is a poor conductor but its
surface is large.
It CONDUCTS because the pulses are not symmetrical.

and they do not get charged over time.

They must: " In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized
as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount of
current without changing its potential."

The electronic circuit theory is the ruler in your station. Not EM.

i know this because when a
thunderstorm is nearby they build up enough charge to arc over the
capacitor. if there was charge being constantly emitted when they are
transmitting the capacitor would arc all the time.

Your capacitor is fit to transmitting not for lightnings.
S*