On Oct 17, 9:28*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...

water flow and water waves are NOT good analogs for electromagnetic

waves. *the only common part is that some part of the solution of
their equations includes a sine or cosine function.

Each waves are the same. They transport mass and energy. They never are
harmonic.
S*

no, waves can transport energy without mass. photons have not rest
mass, only energy... look that up in your favorite wikipedia. sound
waves require mass, but don't have to transport it, just move it back
and forth around a point, thus they move energy without net movement
of mass.

On Oct 17, 9:36*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Cecil Moore" ...
On Oct 16, 3:17 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:



If the bottom of the ocean go up than the water is flowing outside this
place. It is a simple flow not a wave.

:-) The bottom of the ocean going up (and down), i.e. earthquake, is
the major *cause* of Tsunami waves. Once set in motion, no further
movement of the bottom of the ocean is necessary. The energy in a
Tsunami wave extends all the way from the depth of the earthquake
source to the surface. Almost all of the water molecule movement in a
Tsunami wave is up and down. There is virtually no simple flow in a
Tsunami wave since the *energy* is traveling at hundreds of meters per
second.

"The measured tsunami flow velocities were within the range of 2 to 5 m/s.. "
From: *http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/2006/2006GL026784.shtml

If it was "simple flow and not a wave" the energy in the wave

would be dissipated in accelerating the water molecules to a velocity
of hundreds of meters per second. Hint: Try making a spinning top out
of an unboiled egg.

It is like the soliton.
S*
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

ah, grabbed another non-sequitar term to add to your gibberish now?
for how long will everything be a soliton to you?

On Oct 17, 4:36*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"The measured tsunami flow velocities were within the range of 2 to 5 m/s.. "
From: *http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/2006/2006GL026784.shtml

Good Grief! The deeper the ocean, the faster the Tsunami wave travels.
The Tsunami wave slows to a crawl when it reaches land and indeed is
forced by the slope of the land to travel horizontally. Unfortunately
for your argument, I was talking about the speed of a Tsunami wave in
the open ocean which can be as fast as a 757 jet airplane. From:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/tsunami/

"The Speed of a Tsunami: A tsunami can travel at well over 970 kph
(600 mph) in the open ocean - as fast as a jet flies. It can take only
a few hours for a tsunami to travel across an entire ocean. A regular
wave (generated by the wind) travels at up to about 90 km/hr."

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930274.html

"For example, at the deepest ocean depths the tsunami wave speed will
be as much as 800 km/h, about the same as that of a jet aircraft.
Since the average depth of the Pacific ocean is 4000 m (14,000 feet) ,
tsunami wave speed will average about 200 m/s or over 700 km/h (500
mph)."

Exactly how much horizontal movement can there be in the water
molecules when the Tsunami wave is moving at 800 km/h (200 m/sec)?
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore"
...
On Oct 17, 4:36 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"The measured tsunami flow velocities were within the range of 2 to 5
m/s. "
From: http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/2006/2006GL026784.shtml

Good Grief! The deeper the ocean, the faster the Tsunami wave travels.
The Tsunami wave slows to a crawl when it reaches land and indeed is
forced by the slope of the land to travel horizontally. Unfortunately
for your argument, I was talking about the speed of a Tsunami wave in
the open ocean which can be as fast as a 757 jet airplane. From:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/tsunami/

"The Speed of a Tsunami: A tsunami can travel at well over 970 kph
(600 mph) in the open ocean - as fast as a jet flies. It can take only
a few hours for a tsunami to travel across an entire ocean. A regular
wave (generated by the wind) travels at up to about 90 km/hr."

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930274.html

"For example, at the deepest ocean depths the tsunami wave speed will
be as much as 800 km/h, about the same as that of a jet aircraft.
Since the average depth of the Pacific ocean is 4000 m (14,000 feet) ,
tsunami wave speed will average about 200 m/s or over 700 km/h (500
mph)."

Exactly how much horizontal movement can there be in the water
molecules when the Tsunami wave is moving at 800 km/h (200 m/sec)?

You are an expert. Electric waves travel with"c".
"Exactly how much horizontal movement can there be in the free electrons
when the electric wave is moving at 300000 km/h?
S*

"K1TTT" wrote
...
On Oct 17, 9:28 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"K1TTT"
...

water flow and water waves are NOT good analogs for electromagnetic

waves. the only common part is that some part of the solution of
their equations includes a sine or cosine function.

Each waves are the same. They transport mass and energy. They never are
harmonic.
S*

no, waves can transport energy without mass. photons have not rest
mass, only energy... look that up in your favorite wikipedia. sound
waves require mass, but don't have to transport it, just move it back
and forth around a point, thus they move energy without net movement
of mass.

So read the Wiki:
"For a pure wave motion in fluid dynamics, the Stokes drift velocity is the
average velocity when following a specific fluid parcel as it travels with
the fluid flow. For instance, a particle floating at the free surface of
water waves, experiences a net Stokes drift velocity in the direction of
wave propagation.
More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average Eulerian
flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear phenomenon is
named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions for this drift in
his 1847 study of water waves."

This nonlinear phenomenon is in each real wave. In texbooks are a paper
waves - for kids. They are linear and symmetric.

"just move it back and forth around a point" is a simplification necessary
in schools.

S*

On Oct 17, 4:06*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Cecil Moore"
...
On Oct 17, 4:36 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"The measured tsunami flow velocities were within the range of 2 to 5
m/s. "
From:http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/2006/2006GL026784.shtml

Good Grief! The deeper the ocean, the faster the Tsunami wave travels.
The Tsunami wave slows to a crawl when it reaches land and indeed is
forced by the slope of the land to travel horizontally. Unfortunately
for your argument, I was talking about the speed of a Tsunami wave in
the open ocean which can be as fast as a 757 jet airplane. From:

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/tsunami/

"The Speed of a Tsunami: A tsunami can travel at well over 970 kph

(600 mph) in the open ocean - as fast as a jet flies. It can take only
a few hours for a tsunami to travel across an entire ocean. A regular
wave (generated by the wind) travels at up to about 90 km/hr."

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930274.html

"For example, at the deepest ocean depths the tsunami wave speed will

be as much as 800 km/h, about the same as that of a jet aircraft.
Since the average depth of the Pacific ocean is 4000 m (14,000 feet) ,
tsunami wave speed will average about 200 m/s or over 700 km/h (500
mph)."

Exactly how much horizontal movement can there be in the water

molecules when the Tsunami wave is moving at 800 km/h (200 m/sec)?

You are an expert. Electric waves travel with"c".
"Exactly how much horizontal movement can there be in the free electrons
when the electric wave is moving at 300000 km/h?
S*

very little.

On Oct 17, 4:32*pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
*"K1TTT" ...
On Oct 17, 9:28 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

"K1TTT"
...

water flow and water waves are NOT good analogs for electromagnetic

waves. the only common part is that some part of the solution of
their equations includes a sine or cosine function.

Each waves are the same. They transport mass and energy. They never are
harmonic.
S*
no, waves can transport energy without mass. *photons have not rest

mass, only energy... look that up in your favorite wikipedia. *sound
waves require mass, but don't have to transport it, just move it back
and forth around a point, thus they move energy without net movement
of mass.

So read the Wiki:
"For a pure wave motion in fluid dynamics, the Stokes drift velocity is the
average velocity when following a specific fluid parcel as it travels with
the fluid flow. For instance, a particle floating at the free surface of
water waves, experiences a net Stokes drift velocity in the direction of
wave propagation.
More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average Eulerian
flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear phenomenon is
named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions for this drift in
his 1847 study of water waves."

This nonlinear phenomenon is in each real wave. In texbooks are a paper
waves - for kids. They are linear and symmetric.

"just move it back and forth around a point" is a simplification necessary
in schools.

S*

ah, but that requires fluid flow. electromagnetic waves do not
require fluid flow or they could not travel at c. There may be some
analogous phenomena in plasma where you can get non-linear effects but
they would not propagate at c, they would be at some much smaller
velocity.

On Oct 17, 11:06*am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Exactly how much horizontal movement can there be in the free electrons
when the electric wave is moving at 300000 km/h?

Already answered earlier in this thread. For HF frequencies, the
horizontal movement of the electrons is minuscule and they can be
considered to be oscillating in place. It is the photons that move at
the speed of light.
--
73, Cecil, w5dxp.com

Uzytkownik "K1TTT" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Oct 17, 4:32 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:

More generally, the Stokes drift velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average
Eulerian
flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear phenomenon
is
named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions for this drift
in
his 1847 study of water waves."

This nonlinear phenomenon is in each real wave. In texbooks are a paper
waves - for kids. They are linear and symmetric.

"just move it back and forth around a point" is a simplification necessary
in schools.

ah, but that requires fluid flow. electromagnetic waves do not
require fluid flow or they could not travel at c.

EM waves are the torsional vibrations in a solid dielectric. In solids are
the strains. Tiny flows.

There may be some
analogous phenomena in plasma where you can get non-linear effects but
they would not propagate at c, they would be at some much smaller
velocity.

The vector calculus describe only movements.
Ancient people describesd the planet movements. But the planet were
described more later.

The same is with the radio waves. They are still not described physically.
In the description must be words electrons and voltage.
S*

Uzytkownik "Cecil Moore" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On Oct 17, 11:06 am, "Szczepan Bialek" wrote:
"Exactly how much horizontal movement can there be in the free electrons
when the electric wave is moving at 300000 km/h?

Already answered earlier in this thread. For HF frequencies, the
horizontal movement of the electrons is minuscule and they can be
considered to be oscillating in place.

Waves are described in the two method: " More generally, the Stokes drift
velocity is the difference between the
average Lagrangian flow velocity of a fluid parcel, and the average
Eulerian flow velocity of the fluid at a fixed position. This nonlinear
phenomenon is named after George Gabriel Stokes, who derived expressions
for this drift in his 1847 study of water waves."

It is the photons that move at the speed of light.

Photons are the math joke.
Electric waves in a medium made of electrons move at the speed of light.
S*