Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Distance to Fault
Jim,
I think you need to go back and read Spamhog's original question. He was trying to determine whether the center conductor of a piece of coax had migrated away from center. He knew where this might have happened - 10 feet from the end, and the migration would have occurred over less than two inches. So the question of locating where the problem might be is moot. What is needed is a measurement of the cable impedance in this region. First, let us get an estimate of what the impedance of the damaged section might be. Spamhog was using RG-6 cable with a foamed polyethylene dielectric. Its velocity factor is 0.85 making its relative permittivity 1.384. The center conductor is 1 mm, and the normal diameter of the center insulator is 4.7 mm. The thickness of the insulator is 1.85 mm. We need to know the impedance if the center conductor had migrated 0.925 mm toward the jacket. For a quick estimate, use the formula for off-center coax (http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclo...offcenter.cfm). This gives an impedance of 69.8 ohms in this section compared to 78.9 ohms in the non-distorted coax. A TDR displays the reflection coefficient from -1 (short) to +1 (open). Here the reflection coefficient is -0.06. So the TDR trace will drop from the center line by 6% for 200 picoseconds. If your 100 MHz scope has a typical Gaussian response, its rise time is at least 3.5 nanoseconds. Do you really think that your oscilloscope trace will clearly show the 200 picosecond dip? Even with the wide-screen magnifier that KB7QHC suggested, I think you will have great difficulty seeing this. 73, Barry WA4VZQ |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Distance to Fault
Barry wrote:
Jim, I think you need to go back and read Spamhog's original question. He was trying to determine whether the center conductor of a piece of coax had migrated away from center. He knew where this might have happened - 10 feet from the end, and the migration would have occurred over less than two inches. So the question of locating where the problem might be is moot. What is needed is a measurement of the cable impedance in this region. First, let us get an estimate of what the impedance of the damaged section might be. Spamhog was using RG-6 cable with a foamed polyethylene dielectric. Its velocity factor is 0.85 making its relative permittivity 1.384. The center conductor is 1 mm, and the normal diameter of the center insulator is 4.7 mm. The thickness of the insulator is 1.85 mm. We need to know the impedance if the center conductor had migrated 0.925 mm toward the jacket. For a quick estimate, use the formula for off-center coax (http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclo...offcenter.cfm). This gives an impedance of 69.8 ohms in this section compared to 78.9 ohms in the non-distorted coax. A TDR displays the reflection coefficient from -1 (short) to +1 (open). Here the reflection coefficient is -0.06. So the TDR trace will drop from the center line by 6% for 200 picoseconds. If your 100 MHz scope has a typical Gaussian response, its rise time is at least 3.5 nanoseconds. Do you really think that your oscilloscope trace will clearly show the 200 picosecond dip? Even with the wide-screen magnifier that KB7QHC suggested, I think you will have great difficulty seeing this. 73, Barry WA4VZQ The bandwidth of the 'scope will make the trace have a ripple intead of the nice, sharp bump you would get from a faster 'scope. Spamhog's original statement was that the cable was crushed to half diameter for about 2 inches as I recall. I was able to see ripples in the display for cables with less crush then that which were on the order of 1/4 wide. The bottom line is the faster the 'scope you use and the faster the rise time of the applied pulse, the better the meaurement. And since this is a hobby and not building man rated space craft, I would say try whatever you can get your hands on for free and see what happens. Or spend eternity arguing whether or not it is possible to do. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Distance to Fault
On Nov 10, 7:44*pm, "Barry" wrote:
Jim, I think you need to go back and read Spamhog's original question. *He was trying to determine whether the center conductor of a piece of coax had migrated away from center. *He knew where this might have happened - 10 feet from the end, and the migration would have occurred over less than two inches. *So the question of locating where the problem might be is moot. *What is needed is a measurement of the cable impedance in this region. First, let us get an estimate of what the impedance of the damaged section might be. *Spamhog was using RG-6 cable with a foamed polyethylene dielectric. *Its velocity factor is 0.85 making its relative permittivity 1.384. *The center conductor is 1 mm, and the normal diameter of the center insulator is 4.7 mm. *The thickness of the insulator is 1.85 mm. *We need to know the impedance if the center conductor had migrated 0.925 mm toward the jacket. For a quick estimate, use the formula for off-center coax (http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclo...offcenter.cfm). *This gives an impedance of 69.8 ohms in this section compared to 78.9 ohms in the non-distorted coax. *A TDR displays the reflection coefficient from -1 (short) to +1 (open). *Here the reflection coefficient is -0.06.. So the TDR trace will drop from the center line by 6% for 200 picoseconds. If your 100 MHz scope has a typical Gaussian response, its rise time is at least 3.5 nanoseconds. *Do you really think that your oscilloscope trace will clearly show the 200 picosecond dip? *Even with the wide-screen magnifier that KB7QHC suggested, I think you will have great difficulty seeing this. * * 73, Barry *WA4VZQ It may be that a 100 MHz scope has better than a 3.5 nsec risetime, given that it is sped'ed for response flatness to that limit and its response actually extends beyond !00 MHz. In retirement, I no longer have access to test equipment that would support my point. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Distance to Fault
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:22:54 -0800 (PST), "Sal M. Onella"
wrote: It may be that a 100 MHz scope has better than a 3.5 nsec risetime, given that it is sped'ed for response flatness to that limit and its response actually extends beyond !00 MHz. The simple correlation between risetime and bandwidth is roughly: BW = 1/(3·t) Unfortunately, peaking bandwidth can degrade risetime, and vice-versa. O'scopes have a lot of conflicting adjustments within them. The TEK545 had something like an 8 to 12 hour tune-up procedure for the average bench tech (a calibration specialist could do it in 3 to 4 hours). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Distance to Fault
"Sal M. Onella" wrote in message
... It may be that a 100 MHz scope has better than a 3.5 nsec risetime, given that it is sped'ed for response flatness to that limit and its response actually extends beyond !00 MHz. In retirement, I no longer have access to test equipment that would support my point. See the following article: http://www.eetimes.com/design/microw...ight-Bandwidth There are two paragraphs in the article of importance he "All oscilloscopes exhibit a low-pass frequency response that rolls-off at higher frequencies, as shown in Figure 1. Most scopes with bandwidth specifications of 1GHz and below typically have what is called a Gaussian response, which exhibits a slow roll-off characteristic beginning at approximately one-third the -3dB frequency. Oscilloscopes with bandwidth specifications greater than 1GHz typically have a maximally-flat frequency response, as shown in Figure 2. This type of response usually exhibits a flatter in-band response with a sharper roll-off characteristic near the -3dB frequency. "Closely related to an oscilloscope's bandwidth specification is its rise time specification. Scopes with a Gaussian-type response will have an approximate rise time of 0.35/f(sub)BW based on a 10- to 90-percent criterion. Scopes with a maximally-flat response typically have rise time specifications in the range of 0.4/f(sub)BW depending on the sharpness of the frequency roll-off characteristic. But it is important to remember that a scope's rise time is not the fastest edge speed that the oscilloscope can accurately measure. It is the fastest edge speed the scope can possibly produce if the input signal has a theoretical infinitely fast rise time (0 ps). Although this theoretical specification is impossible to test (since pulse generators don't have infinitely fast edges) from a practical perspective, you can test your oscilloscope's rise time by inputting a pulse that has edge speeds that are 3 to 5 times faster than the scope's rise time specification." 73, Dr. Barry L. Ornitz WA4VZQ |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Bushes Fault | Shortwave | |||
Help with TS711 fault | General | |||
FT 480R fault - 147.000 MHz on TX | Homebrew | |||
RA17 Fault-Help Please | Shortwave | |||
RA17-FAULT, Help please | Boatanchors |