(Fractenna) wrote in message ...
Hello,

I am working on a PCB-based antenna, with copper on both sides.
Believe it or not, the hardest part is figuring out how much the PCB
material would cost. Does anyone have any PCB costing numbers for
FR4, FR408, Nelco 40013, Rogers 4003, any other material? I
understand that thickness plays a major part in the cost so if
possible please include the board thickness with the cost number (I am
currently thinking of using 20mils thick PCB). It would probably be
easiest if the cost was in units of US$ per sq. inch or sq. cm. Many
thanks.


4003 is very good, but there are many less expensive alternatives, depending
on the app and freq required. I am puzzled why you haven't priced this with
manufacturer's reps or even board fab houses. They are not shrinking violets,
and happy to give you info

Also, it would be helpful to know who you are. Basketball and antennas don't
often get placed together.

73,
Chip N1IR

My name is Kevin, Mr. Fractenna. The reason I don't call the reps is
because I am not nearly as interested in the numbers they tell me as I
am in the numbers that folks have already negotiated. In this way
when I eventually call them I have an idea of how much I am getting
ripped off. Last time I called a rep he wanted me to pay 60 cents for
a nickel part. So how much I am overpaying is the answer I am after.

You indicate that you are aware of less expensive alternatives to
4003. Would you kindly let me know what those are. Are we talking
materials other than FR408? BTW the frequency is in the 3-4GHz band,
so loss tangent and other stuff only somewhat matters. There is a
price/efficiency tradeoff in play. I would like to 'see the whole
field' before I decide which way to run.

Thanks.
Kevin Smith

My name is Kevin, Mr. Fractenna. The reason I don't call the reps is
because I am not nearly as interested in the numbers they tell me as I
am in the numbers that folks have already negotiated. In this way
when I eventually call them I have an idea of how much I am getting
ripped off. Last time I called a rep he wanted me to pay 60 cents for
a nickel part. So how much I am overpaying is the answer I am after.

You indicate that you are aware of less expensive alternatives to
4003. Would you kindly let me know what those are. Are we talking
materials other than FR408? BTW the frequency is in the 3-4GHz band,
so loss tangent and other stuff only somewhat matters. There is a
price/efficiency tradeoff in play. I would like to 'see the whole
field' before I decide which way to run.

Thanks.
Kevin Smith

....and that's exactly why you need the reps in.

We do thousands of square feet of PCB a year, and we never had to use a
newsgroup to figure out a good price, or ask anyone in the way you suggest.
Call the reps. If you want to play games, then you can invite them over on the
same day and ask for their best price.

The substrate houses are eager for business and you owe it to good
vendor-customer relationships to play it straight. That's my opinion. But hey,
what do I know:-)?

BTW, putting FR4 and 4003 in the same sentence indicates you may really need
the vendors to fill you in: No one uses FR4 efficiently at those freqs--lousy
loss tangent. OTH, I, personally, do not choose 4003 much due to cost, save
for very specific high margin needs. But others, of course, may choose these
great product according to their needs.

73,
Chip N1IR

(Fractenna) wrote in message ...
My name is Kevin, Mr. Fractenna. The reason I don't call the reps is
because I am not nearly as interested in the numbers they tell me as I
am in the numbers that folks have already negotiated. In this way
when I eventually call them I have an idea of how much I am getting
ripped off. Last time I called a rep he wanted me to pay 60 cents for
a nickel part. So how much I am overpaying is the answer I am after.

You indicate that you are aware of less expensive alternatives to
4003. Would you kindly let me know what those are. Are we talking
materials other than FR408? BTW the frequency is in the 3-4GHz band,
so loss tangent and other stuff only somewhat matters. There is a
price/efficiency tradeoff in play. I would like to 'see the whole
field' before I decide which way to run.

Thanks.
Kevin Smith

...and that's exactly why you need the reps in.

We do thousands of square feet of PCB a year, and we never had to use a
newsgroup to figure out a good price, or ask anyone in the way you suggest.
Call the reps. If you want to play games, then you can invite them over on the
same day and ask for their best price.

The substrate houses are eager for business and you owe it to good
vendor-customer relationships to play it straight. That's my opinion. But hey,
what do I know:-)?

BTW, putting FR4 and 4003 in the same sentence indicates you may really need
the vendors to fill you in: No one uses FR4 efficiently at those freqs--lousy
loss tangent. OTH, I, personally, do not choose 4003 much due to cost, save
for very specific high margin needs. But others, of course, may choose these
great product according to their needs.

73,
Chip N1IR

Mr. Fractenna you call it games, everyone else calls it business and
the reps are playing. Are you SURE you are getting the best price for
those thousands of square feet? What if you could knock it down by a
penny/sq in? What better place than a forum like this to figure out
what the right price is?

BTW I know the differences between FR4 and 4003 properties. I don't
know the difference in cost so I only have half the equation (if you
look above, I told you that there is a cost/efficiency tradoff in
place for my application).

BTW You have NOT answered one question I asked so far. It would be
helpful if you either answered the questions or stopped wasting my
time. You, my friend are the one that's playing games.

basketball_jones wrote:
BTW You have NOT answered one question I asked so far. It would be
helpful if you either answered the questions or stopped wasting my
time.

It's a little ironic that you're trying to save a penny or two on your
design and think that bitching about free advice is somehow going to help
you achieve that goal...

Look, call up a dozen or so vendors and get some price quotes -- it'll give
you some idea of what a 'reasonable' price should be. Figure out what you
can charge for your product... if there's enough money left for you to make
profit, just go for it and leave the rest of your learning/profit
maximization until you actually have an income stream and some track record
of the difficulties in building your products.

Anyone worrying about $.01/sq. in. either has such a huge volume that they
should be able to afford an expect to get the best prices and redesign the
product (this oftens makes a huge difference!) specifically to be easy to
manufacture or else is probably never going to get their product out the
door in the first place. I've seen many people who seemed to have viable
product ideas never get anywhere because they spent far too much time
worrying about how to squeeze the last penny out of manufacturing costs and
ran out of enthusiasm to simply design and document the product properly.

---Joel Kolstad

It's a little ironic that you're trying to save a penny or two on your
design and think that bitching about free advice is somehow going to help
you achieve that goal...

Look, call up a dozen or so vendors and get some price quotes -- it'll give
you some idea of what a 'reasonable' price should be. Figure out what you
can charge for your product... if there's enough money left for you to make
profit, just go for it and leave the rest of your learning/profit
maximization until you actually have an income stream and some track record
of the difficulties in building your products.

Anyone worrying about $.01/sq. in. either has such a huge volume that they
should be able to afford an expect to get the best prices and redesign the
product (this oftens makes a huge difference!) specifically to be easy to
manufacture or else is probably never going to get their product out the
door in the first place. I've seen many people who seemed to have viable
product ideas never get anywhere because they spent far too much time
worrying about how to squeeze the last penny out of manufacturing costs and
ran out of enthusiasm to simply design and document the product properly.

---Joel Kolstad

Finally a thoughtful response. BTW I have called up the vendors,
that's just common sense, but the prices they quote are rediculous
even if you promise them volume. They don't believe you about the
volume (rightfully so, that's why I am asking someone who has the
volume) and at those prices there is no business. I have done all
that analysis.

Yes, I am worried about $.01/sq in. That's a buck on a 100 sq in
board. That's A LOT of money to me. BTW, I have done as much antenna
footprint minimization as possible (that's a different topic). Now to
your point about never getting anywhere due to too much time squeezing
out pennies. I have experienced a lot more of the opposite, where
people build stuff without paying enough attention to the costs and
then figure out that its too expensive and try to cost reduce. At
that point their previous decisions limit their options and the stuff
can never be built cheap enough. So I am trying to strike a balance.
And if I can get a quick answer on what those costs are, that would
leave me more time to optimize the design. BTW I am NOT asking who
you are, I am just asking how much you pay. That's the beauty of
these boards. I don't see the foul.

ps Free advice is the goal of these boards, I am not bitching about
the advice, I am bitching about lack thereof.

basketball_jones wrote:

It's a little ironic that you're trying to save a penny or two on your
design and think that bitching about free advice is somehow going to help
you achieve that goal...

Look, call up a dozen or so vendors and get some price quotes -- it'll give
you some idea of what a 'reasonable' price should be. Figure out what you
can charge for your product... if there's enough money left for you to make
profit, just go for it and leave the rest of your learning/profit
maximization until you actually have an income stream and some track record
of the difficulties in building your products.

Anyone worrying about $.01/sq. in. either has such a huge volume that they
should be able to afford an expect to get the best prices and redesign the
product (this oftens makes a huge difference!) specifically to be easy to
manufacture or else is probably never going to get their product out the
door in the first place. I've seen many people who seemed to have viable
product ideas never get anywhere because they spent far too much time
worrying about how to squeeze the last penny out of manufacturing costs and
ran out of enthusiasm to simply design and document the product properly.

---Joel Kolstad

Finally a thoughtful response. BTW I have called up the vendors,
that's just common sense, but the prices they quote are rediculous
even if you promise them volume. They don't believe you about the
volume (rightfully so, that's why I am asking someone who has the
volume) and at those prices there is no business. I have done all
that analysis.

Yes, I am worried about $.01/sq in. That's a buck on a 100 sq in
board. That's A LOT of money to me. BTW, I have done as much antenna
footprint minimization as possible (that's a different topic). Now to
your point about never getting anywhere due to too much time squeezing
out pennies. I have experienced a lot more of the opposite, where
people build stuff without paying enough attention to the costs and
then figure out that its too expensive and try to cost reduce. At
that point their previous decisions limit their options and the stuff
can never be built cheap enough. So I am trying to strike a balance.
And if I can get a quick answer on what those costs are, that would
leave me more time to optimize the design. BTW I am NOT asking who
you are, I am just asking how much you pay. That's the beauty of
these boards. I don't see the foul.

ps Free advice is the goal of these boards, I am not bitching about
the advice, I am bitching about lack thereof.

I gotta think you must be taking the wrong approach with these PC houses
if you can't get an answer from them. Besides, the answers you get from
us don't amount to much if you can't get anybody to make your boards for
the prices "quoted" here.
Bottom line is you won't get the low digit price unless you're going to
spend some big money. If you let the PC houses know how big a project
you have, and it's big, then they'll be plenty anxious to quote you a
good price.

73, Jim AC6XG

Jim Kelley wrote in message ...
basketball_jones wrote:

It's a little ironic that you're trying to save a penny or two on your
design and think that bitching about free advice is somehow going to help
you achieve that goal...

Look, call up a dozen or so vendors and get some price quotes -- it'll give
you some idea of what a 'reasonable' price should be. Figure out what you
can charge for your product... if there's enough money left for you to make
profit, just go for it and leave the rest of your learning/profit
maximization until you actually have an income stream and some track record
of the difficulties in building your products.

Anyone worrying about $.01/sq. in. either has such a huge volume that they
should be able to afford an expect to get the best prices and redesign the
product (this oftens makes a huge difference!) specifically to be easy to
manufacture or else is probably never going to get their product out the
door in the first place. I've seen many people who seemed to have viable
product ideas never get anywhere because they spent far too much time
worrying about how to squeeze the last penny out of manufacturing costs and
ran out of enthusiasm to simply design and document the product properly.

---Joel Kolstad

Finally a thoughtful response. BTW I have called up the vendors,
that's just common sense, but the prices they quote are rediculous
even if you promise them volume. They don't believe you about the
volume (rightfully so, that's why I am asking someone who has the
volume) and at those prices there is no business. I have done all
that analysis.

Yes, I am worried about $.01/sq in. That's a buck on a 100 sq in
board. That's A LOT of money to me. BTW, I have done as much antenna
footprint minimization as possible (that's a different topic). Now to
your point about never getting anywhere due to too much time squeezing
out pennies. I have experienced a lot more of the opposite, where
people build stuff without paying enough attention to the costs and
then figure out that its too expensive and try to cost reduce. At
that point their previous decisions limit their options and the stuff
can never be built cheap enough. So I am trying to strike a balance.
And if I can get a quick answer on what those costs are, that would
leave me more time to optimize the design. BTW I am NOT asking who
you are, I am just asking how much you pay. That's the beauty of
these boards. I don't see the foul.

ps Free advice is the goal of these boards, I am not bitching about
the advice, I am bitching about lack thereof.

I gotta think you must be taking the wrong approach with these PC houses
if you can't get an answer from them. Besides, the answers you get from
us don't amount to much if you can't get anybody to make your boards for
the prices "quoted" here.
Bottom line is you won't get the low digit price unless you're going to
spend some big money. If you let the PC houses know how big a project
you have, and it's big, then they'll be plenty anxious to quote you a
good price.

73, Jim AC6XG

Folks we are missing the point here. I can certainly get a quote from
them. You can safely assume I already have it. Ok, that tells me the
MOST I am going to pay. Now I want the LEAST I can possibly pay. The
only way for me to get that is to go through board manufacturers' cost
structure and assume their take. I am not TI or HP, I don't have the
resources to do that, and even if I did I wouldn't get it right. Now
why would I want to know the LEAST even though I can't get that price
at this point. Well, the situation is likely that if I have to pay
the MOST, I lose money. Do I still lose money when I get to pay the
LEAST? (As far as getting the houses to quote a big project) I can't
get the big project funded, much less quoted until I understand that.

Look people. Determining the 'right' price is one of the 'killer aps'
of the internet. Use it.

BTW You have NOT answered one question I asked so far. It would be
helpful if you either answered the questions or stopped wasting my
time. You, my friend are the one that's playing games.


Please Kevin,

Don't be so righteous. I told you what to do on a private e-mail, way before
you sent this. If you couldn't get pricing from the reps--REAL pricing--then I
would provide it.

I, too, have priced out boards for microwave apps, and I certainly didn't need
to go around the reps.

We need to keep a viable substrate industry continuing in this country, and
anything that could be construed as undermining them is not in my vocabulary.
They've bled way too much already.

73,
Chip N1IR

(Fractenna) wrote in message ...
BTW You have NOT answered one question I asked so far. It would be
helpful if you either answered the questions or stopped wasting my
time. You, my friend are the one that's playing games.


Please Kevin,

Don't be so righteous. I told you what to do on a private e-mail, way before
you sent this. If you couldn't get pricing from the reps--REAL pricing--then I
would provide it.

I, too, have priced out boards for microwave apps, and I certainly didn't need
to go around the reps.

We need to keep a viable substrate industry continuing in this country, and
anything that could be construed as undermining them is not in my vocabulary.
They've bled way too much already.

73,
Chip N1IR

I am sorry, I don't remember getting an email from you, would you
kindly re-send. Thanks. Could you kindly put 'PCB costs' or
something along those lines in the header because (as you can tell)
this is my spam email account.

I have gotten pricing from the reps (before I started this thread),
but until you are ready to sign on the dotted line and sign up to the
volume the pricing is not accurate (budgetary pricing), so once again,
so far I know the MOST I am going to pay.

I am in NO WAY trying to undermine the substrate industry, on the
contrary, I am just trying to figure out that happy point at which
BOTH they and I make money. If you look at my above posts I fully
expect and want them to make a profit, but not too much profit (BTW
there is no such thing as 'too much profit', I, like them, am trying
to maximize mine). Remember, I am asking for the lowest price at
which they ARE willing to do business. Once again, I CAN'T get that
price until I am ready to sign and I can't be ready to sign until I
get that price.

K.

Once again, I CAN'T get that
price until I am ready to sign and I can't be ready to sign until I
get that price.

K.

Well, I did my duty.

Nope; I won't resend the e-mail. It was labelled ' PCB' costs so it
shouldn't have been counted as spam. I tried to help. That's enough.

If you start getting spam with PCB titles, you really do have some problems I
can't assist with.

Best of luck.

74,
Chip N1IR