"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

Reflected power is a mere fiction. Power which is not radiated from an
antenna never actually arrives there. In fact it never leaves the
transmitter.

but, but, but, i can SEE reflected power! it shows on my TDR, i can see
ghosts in video from it, i can measure it, i can catch it in a circulator!
how can it be fiction?!?!?!

Dave wrote:

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

Reflected power is a mere fiction. Power which is not radiated from an
antenna never actually arrives there. In fact it never leaves the
transmitter.

but, but, but, i can SEE reflected power! it shows on my TDR, i can see
ghosts in video from it, i can measure it, i can catch it in a circulator!
how can it be fiction?!?!?!

You aren't being literal-minded enough. When you claim to "see" and
"measure" reflected power, you're applying theories that assume it
exists. You are not proving that it does exist.

What shows on your TDR, as ghosts on your TV, and also on a slotted
line, is the interaction between forward and reflected voltage waves.
Likewise a circulator (or a directional coupler) processes the voltage
and current waves. I've yet to see a fully detailed functional
explanation of any of those devices in terms of power waves alone.

That is because "forward and reflected power waves" is a derivative
concept. It depends on concepts of voltage and current waves for its
existence; but it doesn't add anything useful that we didn't already
know.


--
73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message
news
Dave wrote:

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

Reflected power is a mere fiction. Power which is not radiated from an
antenna never actually arrives there. In fact it never leaves the
transmitter.

but, but, but, i can SEE reflected power! it shows on my TDR, i can see
ghosts in video from it, i can measure it, i can catch it in a
circulator!
how can it be fiction?!?!?!

You aren't being literal-minded enough. When you claim to "see" and
"measure" reflected power, you're applying theories that assume it
exists. You are not proving that it does exist.

What shows on your TDR, as ghosts on your TV, and also on a slotted
line, is the interaction between forward and reflected voltage waves.
Likewise a circulator (or a directional coupler) processes the voltage
and current waves. I've yet to see a fully detailed functional
explanation of any of those devices in terms of power waves alone.

That is because "forward and reflected power waves" is a derivative
concept. It depends on concepts of voltage and current waves for its
existence; but it doesn't add anything useful that we didn't already
know.

i know that, i was just trying to get in all the bogus arguments before
anyone else did. 'power waves' are a concept invented to simplify some
concepts, but instead they just hide the important details. we have been
over and over that on here in the past and always end up in the same place,
i was just hoping to skip right to the end.

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Ian White, G3SEK" wrote in message
news
Dave wrote:

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

Reflected power is a mere fiction. Power which is not radiated from
an
antenna never actually arrives there. In fact it never leaves the
transmitter.

but, but, but, i can SEE reflected power! it shows on my TDR, i can
see
ghosts in video from it, i can measure it, i can catch it in a
circulator!
how can it be fiction?!?!?!

You aren't being literal-minded enough. When you claim to "see" and
"measure" reflected power, you're applying theories that assume it
exists. You are not proving that it does exist.

What shows on your TDR, as ghosts on your TV, and also on a slotted
line, is the interaction between forward and reflected voltage waves.
Likewise a circulator (or a directional coupler) processes the voltage
and current waves. I've yet to see a fully detailed functional
explanation of any of those devices in terms of power waves alone.

That is because "forward and reflected power waves" is a derivative
concept. It depends on concepts of voltage and current waves for its
existence; but it doesn't add anything useful that we didn't already
know.

i know that, i was just trying to get in all the bogus arguments before
anyone else did. 'power waves' are a concept invented to simplify some
concepts, but instead they just hide the important details. we have been
over and over that on here in the past and always end up in the same
place,
i was just hoping to skip right to the end.


maybe if i had learned to use smileys it would have helped.... what is the
sarcastic one?? something like ;-^ or something like that??

Dave wrote:
That is because "forward and reflected power waves" is a derivative
concept. It depends on concepts of voltage and current waves for its
existence; but it doesn't add anything useful that we didn't already
know.

i know that, i was just trying to get in all the bogus arguments before
anyone else did.

Oh... in that case: "Well done - a noble effort, sir!"

(You forgot to mention the slotted line, which mercifully saved you from
a perfect score :-)

'power waves' are a concept invented to simplify some
concepts, but instead they just hide the important details. we have been
over and over that on here in the past and always end up in the same
place,
i was just hoping to skip right to the end.


What, in this newsgroup?


maybe if i had learned to use smileys it would have helped.... what is
the sarcastic one?? something like ;-^ or something like that??

Sorry I missed the deliberate irony on your part, Dave, but the same
things have often been said here in total seriousness. And here we go
again...


--
73 from Ian G3SEK 'In Practice' columnist for RadCom (RSGB)
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek

"Dave" wrote in message
...

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...

Reflected power is a mere fiction. Power which is not radiated from an
antenna never actually arrives there. In fact it never leaves the
transmitter.

but, but, but, i can SEE reflected power! it shows on my TDR, i can see
ghosts in video from it, i can measure it, i can catch it in a circulator!
how can it be fiction?!?!?!


Clearly there is reflected power. Just don't take the SWR meter too
literally. It does not actually measure power, but the scale has been fudged
so it indicates the correct power if the load is equal to some design value.
I can see a long thread here.

Tam/WB2TT

"Tam/WB2TT" wrote in message
...
Clearly there is reflected power. Just don't take the SWR meter too
literally. It does not actually measure power, but the scale has been
fudged
so it indicates the correct power if the load is equal to some design
value.
I can see a long thread here.

see my last replies to this thread... i'm done... cecil and reg are back and
will undoubtedly re-hash optical methods and conjugate matches till the
server dies... as for me, this thread is now over.