Henry, the trouble is nobody can understand your questions. This is because
a "conjugate match" is not relevant. And that's because the internal
impedance of the transmitter is an unknown quantity.

The sole purpose of the so-called SWR meter is to indicate whether or not
transmitter is loaded with 50 ohms.

Can anyone suggest what else it USEFULLY indicates? What else does anyone
need to know?
----
Reg, G4FGQ


"Henry Kolesnik" wrote
Not much but neither does much of this thread regarding my original query.
I hope someone that understands the question can answer in a way that my
feeble brain can comprehend. At least we're eliminating what's not the
answer.
73
Hank WD5JFR

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
Cec et al, what have circulators, S-parameters, etc. to do with HF ?

My original question nor any subsequent questions included or even hinted
"conjugate match." SWR was not in the original question either but later as
it applies to ghosting or smearing transmitted TV pix. Again is it an open,
or short and if not what is it or can't it be explain becasue no one knows?
I guess may Sunday is a day of relaxation for minds that know!
73
Hank WD5JFR
"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
Henry, the trouble is nobody can understand your questions. This is
because
a "conjugate match" is not relevant. And that's because the internal
impedance of the transmitter is an unknown quantity.

The sole purpose of the so-called SWR meter is to indicate whether or not
transmitter is loaded with 50 ohms.

Can anyone suggest what else it USEFULLY indicates? What else does anyone
need to know?
----
Reg, G4FGQ


"Henry Kolesnik" wrote
Not much but neither does much of this thread regarding my original
query.
I hope someone that understands the question can answer in a way that my
feeble brain can comprehend. At least we're eliminating what's not the
answer.
73
Hank WD5JFR

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
Cec et al, what have circulators, S-parameters, etc. to do with HF ?

Henry Kolesnik wrote:
Then why can high SWR on a TV Tx cauuse ghosts or smearing on the TV Rx?

Hank, You're preaching to the choir, asking me that question.
I don't like that definition but if you poll the gurus on this
newsgroup, most will say that reflected power that is incident
upon the transmitter was never generated in the first place.
(Never mind the ghosting that they can see with their own eyes.)

Lots of steady-state ills can be swept under the rug by assuming
nothing but fixed frequency sine waves with zero modulation. A
guru's answer to you question is that "ghosting is not steady-
state". :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Quote below

Actually, it depends upon where that high SWR physically is located.

A dummy load with a 1.3:1 SWR connected directly at the tx output connector
will not produce a visible ghost in the demodulated TV picture.

A 1.3:1 antenna SWR at the far end of more than about 500 feet of otherwise
matched transmission line connected to that same transmitter WILL produce a
visible ghost.

-RF
__________

"Henry Kolesnik" wrote
Then why can high SWR on a TV Tx cauuse ghosts or smearing on the TV Rx?

Dave wrote:

Cecil wrote:
Uhhhh Dave, the original topic is the Subject: line. If anything,
what happens inside a transmitter is the irrelevant subject since
appreciable reflections hardly ever reach the typical ham transmitter.

here is the original:

Are you saying that the original subject was wrong?

of course it is contrived. no one uses loads of those exact impedances, or
lengths of coax like you do.

Dave, have you ever heard of an example? What I posted is one
easy-to-understand example of virtually an infinite number of
possible examples of a Z0-match. If you like, here is another
example of a Z0-match:

XMTR------tuner---unknown length of feedline---unknown load
100W--
--0W

There is a Z0-match at the input of the tuner. All the voltages
and all the currents are very close to in-phase or 180 degrees
out of phase at the input of the tuner. Do you have the balls to
assert that the above configuration is "contrived"?

THE GREAT MAJORITY OF AMATEUR RADIO ANTENNA SYSTEMS ACHIEVE CLOSE
TO A Z0-MATCH!!! That means all the voltages and currents are close
to being in phase or 180 degrees out of phase. I'm sorry that technical
fact hairlips you. Since your hidden agenda is hidden, I can only
guess what it might be.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Reg Edwards wrote:
Can anyone suggest what else it USEFULLY indicates?

It usefully indicates the vector sum of two voltages
proportional to the net voltage and net current. It
also usefully indicates the vector difference of the
two voltages proportional to the net voltage and net
current. Those are extremely useful indications for
the initiated. I agree it is not very useful for the
uninitiated. I trust that doesn't include you.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Henry Kolesnik wrote:
... can't it be explained because no one knows?

So far, it cannot be proven one way or another, so I guess
you would be safe in assuming that "no one knows for sure".
There are many opinions, none of which can be proven (yet).
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Richard Fry wrote:
A dummy load with a 1.3:1 SWR connected directly at the tx output connector
will not produce a visible ghost in the demodulated TV picture.

Of course, a same-cycle reflection has virtually no effect on ghosting.

A 1.3:1 antenna SWR at the far end of more than about 500 feet of otherwise
matched transmission line connected to that same transmitter WILL produce a
visible ghost.

Of course, a different-cycle reflection is what causes ghosting.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Sorry Henry. I confused your query with what's going on in another thread.

Short circuits and open circuits result in reflection coefficients of -1 and
+1 respectively.
----
Reg

Cecil Moore wrote:

Reg Edwards wrote:

Reflected power is a mere fiction. Power which is not radiated from an
antenna never actually arrives there. In fact it never leaves the
transmitter.


Therefore, radar cannot work since it relies upon reflected
joules/second. Mirrors also cannot work since there is an ExB
amount of power in those reflections.

I made note of this in a thread I just started. Is this a good analogy?
Certainly the signal goes out, hits something and then comes back.
Wouldn't this scramble the signal by some definable amount in an antenna?


Reg, for a 291.5 ohm antenna to accept 100 watts requires the forward
power to the antenna to be 200 watts. 100 watts is accepted by the
antenna and 100 watts is rejected by the antenna. 200 watts to the
antenna is routinely accomplished by a 100 watt ham transmitter and
a Z0-match provided by a tuner.

This is exactly like a partially silvered mirror that reflects half
the irradiance and allows half the irradiance through.

Assume a one second long lossless unterminated transmission line.
Pour 1000 watts into it for one second. During the next second, we
disconnect the line from the source and you grab the two wires, one
in each hand. Then tell us whether reflected power exists or not.

All we have to do is get an antenna that is 186,347.3233361 miles long.
Or would that be 122,989.233401 miles?

At any rate, the answer should be pretty easy to verify by using a very
long but practical sized antenna. Anyone done that?

- Mike KB3EIA -