The earth
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


Moving the battery would make no difference whatsoever in the
performance of the antenna.

"Would" means that you are not sure.

If you want to be sure you can make the two experimments:

1. Take off the car battery and sit it on the stone bench, and/or

2. Instal the ammeters on the each wires to the battery while it's in
the car.

Would be nice to know the results.
Best Regards,
S*

Hello chaps. Let's not worry about Szczepan's misunderstanding of the word
"would".
I like the idea of the ammeters - I think I saw something similar in a
textbook I have from the 1920s or 1930s.

Best wishes to all, Ian.

The earth
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...



If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.

Do any of you teach students hoping to gain an amateur radio licence?
Some of Szczepan's postings would be useful for amusing those students and
informing them how it is definitely not done.

Hope you all have a fine Wednesday,
Ian.

The earth
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .
Here you a
"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection has
a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which
may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common
return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

S*

Hello again folks.

{I am concerned about Szczepan. He's cut-and-pasting from Wikipedia. Is he
safe with a sharp pair of scissors?}
I'm not sure whether to suggest that he also look at "chassis" and "common
point".
More seriously, I guess this is an example of a common word, "ground",
having more than one technical meaning and this bringing confusion to the
lay person.

I really wish that Szczepan would get hold of a training manual for the
amateur radio licence exams. The usual diagrams would enlighten him.

Kindest regards from a wet UK, Ian.

The earth
 

"Rob" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa3 w wiadomo?ci
...

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of
antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

So your claim is that it is sufficient to "have the chassis" and that
this chassis does not have to be connected to the earth?

What constitutes "the chassis"?
Do you have any minimum size for the chassis to be a chassis?

See the new topic "Ground".
S*

No I won't. Please stick to the topic and don't run away when you
are caught with a mistake.

Here you a
"". In electronic circuit theory, a "ground" is usually idealized as an
infinite source or sink for charge, which can absorb an unlimited amount
of
current without changing its potential. Where a real ground connection
has a
significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer
valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which
may
create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock
hazard.
The use of the term ground (or earth) is so common in electrical and
electronics applications that circuits in portable electronic devices
such
as cell phones and media players as well as circuits in vehicles such as
ships, aircraft, and spacecraft may be spoken of as having a "ground"
connection without any actual connection to the Earth. This is usually a
large conductor attached to one side of the power supply (such as the
"ground plane" on a printed circuit board) which serves as the common
return
path for current from many different components in the circuit." From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.

I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.

It is true because it generate the oscillatory flow of electrons into the
antenna.
In such case the DC ammeter idicates the current.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from
the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.


Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.

Marconi wrote:
""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4)."

" a capacity area placed close to the surface of the ground" = " large
conductor "

The case will be ready to rest if you admit that Marconi was right in his
Nobel lecture.
S*

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...

It depends on the type of antenna.

If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic, parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

No, they do not.

I doubt you know what the word "chassis" means.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

There is wrote that all of your transmitter have "a "ground" connection
without any actual connection to the Earth."

Nope, you just don't understand what is meant.

Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

Nope.

The above you know.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

Meaningless babble.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.

More meaningless babble.

Antennas do not have a chassis.

In the days of wired electronics, the chassis was the metal box the equipment
was built in and used as a common return, i.e. what is called ground but
has no relationship to the Earth. By convention it was mearly the common
connection point for the most negative voltage.

In todays world of circuit boards, there is often no chassis.

Most portable equipment these days is a circuit board in a plastic box.

No chassis.

No ground, as in to the Earth, connection.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Each transmitter needs " an infinite source or sink for charge".

The above you know.

I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.

It is true because it generate the oscillatory flow of electrons into the
antenna.
In such case the DC ammeter idicates the current.

It is a pity that you don't have a transmitter, or otherwise it would
be easy for you to see for yourself that you are talking nonsense!

There is no DC current from a transmitter into the antenna.

But some of you do not know that where the voltage is there is the field
electron emission. So the sink is necessary.

It must not be infinite. "a large conductor" absorb the electrons from
the
air. So its size must be adequate to the emission.


Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.

Marconi wrote:
""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4)."

" a capacity area placed close to the surface of the ground" = " large
conductor "

The case will be ready to rest if you admit that Marconi was right in his
Nobel lecture.
S*

No, he was not right. And you have described yourself what was wrong
in what he wrote.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...

snip

I know that it is not true.
A transmitter needs no infinite source or sink for charge because it
does not generate any DC current into the antenna.

It is true because it generate the oscillatory flow of electrons into the
antenna.

Meaningless babble; there is no such thing.

In such case the DC ammeter idicates the current.

What DE ammeter?

Ok so we can finally rest the case and agree that a connection to
earth is not required for a transmitter, something you have claimed
all the time because Marconi wrote it.

Marconi wrote:
""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4)."

" a capacity area placed close to the surface of the ground" = " large
conductor "

The case will be ready to rest if you admit that Marconi was right in his
Nobel lecture.

Marconi was wrong.

Get over it.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"NM5K" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 4/17/2012 3:01 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
napisal w wiadomosci
...

Fer instance, I'm sitting out in the woods up at my recreational living
center.. I have dipoles strung up in the trees which I leave there,
and I roll the rg-58 coax up and hang it on a tree branch when I leave.
Not a ground wire, or ground connection in sight.. And works perfectly
well. Of course, you can't really see the wires here, but "S" can trust
me, there is no ground connection. The radio is sitting on that stone
bench, and the only connections are 12v to my car battery,

Where is the car battery?
On the stone bench or in the car?
S*



It doesn't matter. 12v is 12v.. But to answer your question,
I open the hood of the car, and attach the wires to the battery
while it's in the car. That way I can start the car to charge
the battery every once in a while.
But the power source of the radio has nothing whatsoever to do with
the antenna. I could place the battery anywhere and the operation would
be the same. The car is not part of the antenna. The *complete* antenna
is suspended between a couple of oak trees well over my head.
The antenna is decoupled from the feed line. And there are no
connections to ground. One could consider the negative power lead
as connecting to a "chassis", IE: the body of the car, but that is
a DC connection, not RF.

Each the earth/chassis/counterpoise are the DC nett connection.

Meaningless babble.

Moving the battery would make no difference whatsoever in the
performance of the antenna.

"Would" means that you are not sure.

Nope.

He is sure, I am sure, and everyone that knows anything about RF is sure.

The only one in the dark is you.

If you want to be sure you can make the two experimments:

1. Take off the car battery and sit it on the stone bench, and/or

2. Instal the ammeters on the each wires to the battery while it's in the
car.

Would be nice to know the results.

Been done innumerable times; it makes no difference.

You are a babbling idiot.

The earth
 

"Ian" wrote in message ...

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...



If it is a dipole, yagi, log-periodic, sturba curtain, rhombic,
parabolic,
helix, loop, cubical quad, on any of many, many more types of antennas
that have no place or need to connect a ground, it would not.

Each of them has the chassis.
S*

# Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen.
#
# Do any of you teach students hoping to gain an amateur radio licence?
# Some of Szczepan's postings would be useful for amusing those students and
# informing them how it is definitely not done.
#
# Hope you all have a fine Wednesday,
# Ian.

And another side benefit. This NG has had few postings in several months.
I haven't seen this much activity on r.r.a.a since the GFW.*

Wayne
W5GIE

* GFW= Great Fractal Wars (TM).