The earth
 

In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*

The earth
 

On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.

"Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed,
and we are talking to you via radio, even though we
are not connected to earth, and Marconi said it would
lead to celestial mayhem if we were to even try."

Houston, I we have a problem...

The earth
 

On 04/10/2012 04:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*

It obviously never was true. My guess is that the reasoning at the time
stemmed from a lack of understanding of far-field electromagnetic wave
propagation (and electromagnetics in general), failure to construct
apparati of sufficient sensitivity due to technology limitations, and
inefficient antenna designs (relative to using the earth as a
counterpoise.) I also think Nikola Tesla failed to grasp these concepts
as well. Sincerely, and 73s from N4GGO,

--
J. B. Wood e-mail:

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*

I hope you have your GSM phone firmly connected to earth, or it would
operate in violation of Marconi's observations.

The earth
 

In the back of the plane there is a small bucket of soil with a ground
rod stuck in it. At each stop they check to make sure the soil is
damp enough to provide sufficient conductivity. On occasion a
little salt is added. The ground rod is connected to the frame of
the plane using an MFJ Artificial Ground to further ensure that
all is well. As well, the bucket is grounded to prevent any
possible cathodic action from interfering with the system.
:-)

Irv VE6BP


"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.

"Houston, Tranquility Base here. The Eagle has landed,
and we are talking to you via radio, even though we
are not connected to earth, and Marconi said it would
lead to celestial mayhem if we were to even try."

Houston, I we have a problem...

The earth
 

"Irv Finkleman" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
In the back of the plane there is a small bucket of soil with a ground
rod stuck in it. At each stop they check to make sure the soil is
damp enough to provide sufficient conductivity. On occasion a
little salt is added. The ground rod is connected to the frame of
the plane using an MFJ Artificial Ground to further ensure that
all is well. As well, the bucket is grounded to prevent any
possible cathodic action from interfering with the system.
:-)

Marconi added:
"By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases
the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

So the plane is "connected to earth".
Is Marconi right?
S*

Irv VE6BP


"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.

Chassis = the ground.
Is it true?
S*

A mobile device uses the user as the counterpoise.
A vehicle is not physically bonded to the earth - yet still works.
A Mag Mount antenna is not physically bonded to the vehicle body - hence it uses a loop radio to antenna antenna to radio and it changes the way the coax interacts with the antenna.
If the radio is bonded to the body and the antenna is bonded to the body the body is capacitive. Turns the whole body into one big counterpoise.

Maybe this is the reason why a 102 inch whip works better then a mag mount antenna or one of those silly dual sticks on a truckers mirrors...

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*

It was NEVER true; Marconi was wrong.

Here's a news flash for you:

A lot has been learned about radio since Marconi.

The radios on Pioneer 10 worked just fine 12,000,000,000 km from the Earth.

The earth
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


"Irv Finkleman" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
In the back of the plane there is a small bucket of soil with a ground
rod stuck in it. At each stop they check to make sure the soil is
damp enough to provide sufficient conductivity. On occasion a
little salt is added. The ground rod is connected to the frame of
the plane using an MFJ Artificial Ground to further ensure that
all is well. As well, the bucket is grounded to prevent any
possible cathodic action from interfering with the system.
:-)

Marconi added:
"By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface
of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases
the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

So the plane is "connected to earth".
Is Marconi right?
S*

Irv VE6BP


"NM5K" wrote in message
...
On 4/10/2012 3:22 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*


Pilots have no trouble using radios at 45,000 ft.
I've never yet seen one require a ground wire.

Chassis = the ground.
Is it true?
S*
**********************
No. Spacecraft have no connection to ground, and it is possible to feed
balanced antennas in a fashion that there is no ground connection.

The earth
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
.. .
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...ni-lecture.pdf

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*

Such a question would only be asked by someone who is unaware of radio
communications by handhelds or by radios in vehicles, aircraft or
spacecraft. In other words, no sentient person should ask it.

I'm plonking this troll, this goon, this rimless zero.

Of course, you can play with him if you wish ... but serious discourse? Ha!

"Sal"

The earth
 

Channel Jumper wrote:

'Rob[_8_ Wrote:
;789340']Szczepan Bialek wrote:-
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/c3j4ghj

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless
telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*-

I hope you have your GSM phone firmly connected to earth, or it would
operate in violation of Marconi's observations.

A mobile device uses the user as the counterpoise.
A vehicle is not physically bonded to the earth - yet still works.
A Mag Mount antenna is not physically bonded to the vehicle body - hence
it uses a loop radio to antenna antenna to radio and it changes the way
the coax interacts with the antenna.
If the radio is bonded to the body and the antenna is bonded to the body
the body is capacitive. Turns the whole body into one big
counterpoise.

Maybe this is the reason why a 102 inch whip works better then a mag
mount antenna or one of those silly dual sticks on a truckers mirrors...

Balanced antennas such as dipoles do not require a "counterpoise".

The earth
 

On 4/10/2012 10:48 AM, Channel Jumper wrote:
'Rob[_8_ Wrote:
;789340']Szczepan Bialek wrote:-
In 1909 Marconi wrote:
http://tinyurl.com/c3j4ghj

"The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless
telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."

It is still true?
S*-

I hope you have your GSM phone firmly connected to earth, or it would
operate in violation of Marconi's observations.

A mobile device uses the user as the counterpoise.

Incorrect. The antennas used do not need a counterpoise. In fact the
user is often a hindrance to the antenna working properly.

tom
K0TAR

The earth
 

"Channel Jumper" napisa³ w
wiadomo¶ci ...


A mobile device uses the user as the counterpoise.
A vehicle is not physically bonded to the earth - yet still works.
A Mag Mount antenna is not physically bonded to the vehicle body - hence
it uses a loop radio to antenna antenna to radio and it changes the way
the coax interacts with the antenna.
If the radio is bonded to the body and the antenna is bonded to the body
the body is capacitive. Turns the whole body into one big
counterpoise.

Maybe this is the reason why a 102 inch whip works better then a mag
mount antenna or one of those silly dual sticks on a truckers mirrors...

Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*

But it is Marconi's opninion. It is not the truth, it is only an
opinion. When you like, you can say he was "not right". Or you can
just respect that he had this opinion. Your choice.

So we can move on. What is your next question about 1910's scientists?

The earth
 

Rob wrote:
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*

But it is Marconi's opninion. It is not the truth, it is only an
opinion. When you like, you can say he was "not right". Or you can
just respect that he had this opinion. Your choice.

So we can move on. What is your next question about 1910's scientists?

It may be more accurate than you are giving him credit for. It was based
upon the antenna designs and frequency ranges in use at the time.

All I know is that by the end of WWI, 200 meters was considered to high in
frequency to be useable, which is why the US Navy wanted hams to be limited
to frequencies above it (or wavelengths below it).

The early practical groundless antennas were 1/2 wave, either a dipole
or end fed half wave, and is a 100 meter wire practical? A 1000 meter?

What frequencies (or wavelengths) was he speaking about?

To answer the comment about cell phones, modern ones operate at around
2.1gHz (3G) a frequency that was impossible to produce at the time.

PL-259 connectors are called UHF connectors for a reason, when they were
designed 30mHz was UHF. And that was 30-40 years later.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
In 1969 the US could put a man on the moon, now teenagers just howl at it. :-(

The earth
 

On 4/11/2012 2:51 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:


Maybe this is the reason why a 102 inch whip works better then a mag
mount antenna or one of those silly dual sticks on a truckers mirrors...

Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*




http://home.comcast.net/~disk200/ru.wmv

http://www.k0bg.com/ground.html

I was saving this for desert.

Read and learn...

The earth
 

"NM5K" wrote in message ...

On 4/11/2012 2:51 AM, Szczepan Bialek wrote:


Maybe this is the reason why a 102 inch whip works better then a mag
mount antenna or one of those silly dual sticks on a truckers mirrors...

Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*



# http://home.comcast.net/~disk200/ru.wmv

ROTFLMAO

Wayne
W5GIE

The earth
 

Uzytkownik "Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...


Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*

And those who do are WRONG!!

The trouble is that you keep taking old outdated quotes, out of context,
and do not understand that theories and knowledge have moved on.

Is even one textbooks where is wrote that Marconi was WRONG?

Are your transmitters without any earth?

I am checking from time to time if your knowledge have moved on.
S*

The earth
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

Is even one textbooks where is wrote that Marconi was WRONG?

Are your transmitters without any earth?

I am checking from time to time if your knowledge have moved on.
S*


Hello Szczepan.

In general, you seem to be looking at outdated techniques and technology.

I guess if you were considering photography you would be asking if wet
plates were still in use and what would be a recipe for a good emulsion. Of
course, film stopped using wet emulsion a century (or more) ago. Wet
emulsion wasn't wrong at the time but it definitely is obsolete.

If you were considering car technology you might be asking about manual
ignition advance/retard. It had its uses but was automated decades ago and
most drivers will not be aware of it. Same thing applies to the choke.

My radio doesn't need to be connected to ground/earth other than for
static/lightning reasons. The theory and technology of radio have made a lot
of progress since the time of Marconi.

Hope this is of some help.
Kindest regards from the UK,
Ian.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Channel Jumper" napisa? w
wiadomo?ci ...


A mobile device uses the user as the counterpoise.
A vehicle is not physically bonded to the earth - yet still works.
A Mag Mount antenna is not physically bonded to the vehicle body - hence
it uses a loop radio to antenna antenna to radio and it changes the way
the coax interacts with the antenna.
If the radio is bonded to the body and the antenna is bonded to the body
the body is capacitive. Turns the whole body into one big
counterpoise.

Maybe this is the reason why a 102 inch whip works better then a mag
mount antenna or one of those silly dual sticks on a truckers mirrors...

Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*

Yeah, it was thought that a long time ago and it has since been proven
to be wrong, as you have been told several times now.

The earth
 

Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
Rob wrote:
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*

But it is Marconi's opninion. It is not the truth, it is only an
opinion. When you like, you can say he was "not right". Or you can
just respect that he had this opinion. Your choice.

So we can move on. What is your next question about 1910's scientists?

It may be more accurate than you are giving him credit for. It was based
upon the antenna designs and frequency ranges in use at the time.

Which means it is true for specific, limited cases, but not true in general.

There has been a lot learned about electromagnetic theory in the past
100 years that this babbling idiot just ignores.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

Uzytkownik "Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...


Not all know that:
""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."
S*

And those who do are WRONG!!

The trouble is that you keep taking old outdated quotes, out of context,
and do not understand that theories and knowledge have moved on.

Is even one textbooks where is wrote that Marconi was WRONG?

Yes, every modern textbook on electromagnetic theory.

See Electromagnetics by Kraus and Carver, Chapter 14, Antennas and Radiation
as but one example.

Are your transmitters without any earth?

Yes, some of them are, some of them aren't.

I am checking from time to time if your knowledge have moved on.
S*

You are just babbling because you can not accept the fact that a lot was
learned after Marconi died, some of which is in direct contridiction to
some of the things he thought were true at the time.

The earth
 

In article ,
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

PL-259 connectors are called UHF connectors for a reason, when they were
designed 30mHz was UHF. And that was 30-40 years later.

My understanding is that in this context, "UHF" is not an acronym for
"ultra-high frequency". It means "Universal High Frequency"... as in,
can be used for all "high frequency" applications.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

The earth
 

"NM5K" wrote in message
...

http://home.comcast.net/~disk200/ru.wmv

That summed it up, nicely. Well done, OM!

The earth
 

"Sal" wrote in message ...


"NM5K" wrote in message
...

http://home.comcast.net/~disk200/ru.wmv

# That summed it up, nicely. Well done, OM!

Indeed. Even youts can understand the question.

The earth
 

Dave Platt wrote:
In article ,
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

PL-259 connectors are called UHF connectors for a reason, when they were
designed 30mHz was UHF. And that was 30-40 years later.

My understanding is that in this context, "UHF" is not an acronym for
"ultra-high frequency". It means "Universal High Frequency"... as in,
can be used for all "high frequency" applications.


Thanks Dave, in all the years I have been interested in radio I never heard
or read that. It does clear up a lot of questions. :-)

73,

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379
In 1969 the US could put a man on the moon, now teenagers just howl at it. :-(

The earth
 

"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

Is even one textbooks where is wrote that Marconi was WRONG?

Are your transmitters without any earth?

I am checking from time to time if your knowledge have moved on.
S*


Hello Szczepan.

In general, you seem to be looking at outdated techniques and technology.

My radio doesn't need to be connected to ground/earth other than for
static/lightning reasons. The theory and technology of radio have made a
lot of progress since the time of Marconi.

Hope this is of some help.
Kindest regards from the UK,
Ian.

Hello Ian,

So the earth is necessary in your radio for the static reasons.
In my also:
"In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached to
the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was grounded at
the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure by an
adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed adjusting the
impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by applying a DC ground
at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct static charge to ground
without diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up
to high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground. Use of this technique provides better
lightning protection than using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is
standard at most mast radiators insulated against ground."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower

It seems to me that the same reasons were in Marconi times.

So I repeat my question:

""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."(Marconi in 1909).

It is still true?
S*

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
So the earth is necessary in your radio for the static reasons.
In my also:
"In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached to
the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was grounded at
the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure by an
adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed adjusting the
impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by applying a DC ground
at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct static charge to ground
without diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up
to high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground. Use of this technique provides better
lightning protection than using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is
standard at most mast radiators insulated against ground."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower

It seems to me that the same reasons were in Marconi times.

You have a big problem with comprehending, don't you?
Earlier you wrote that Marconi said that a capacitive coupling to ground
was good for HF grounding and now you want DC coupling to discharge
static electricity. Those two reasons for grounding are completely
different.

So I repeat my question:

Why do you repeat your question? It has been answered so many
times already.

The earth
 

"Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...
On 12/04/2012 09:41, Szczepan Bialek wrote:

So the earth is necessary in your radio for the static reasons.
In my also:
"In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached
to
the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was grounded
at
the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure by an
adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed adjusting
the
impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by applying a DC
ground
at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct static charge to
ground
without diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build
up
to high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground. Use of this technique provides
better
lightning protection than using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is
standard at most mast radiators insulated against ground."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower

It seems to me that the same reasons were in Marconi times.

So I repeat my question:

""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."(Marconi in 1909).

It is still true?
S*



How many times do you need to be told? NO IT IS NOT TRUE, Marconi may have
been correct when he made the statement considering the equipment and
practices at the time, BUT he was not correct as a statement concerning
radio systems in general. Things move on. Your mobile phone has no earth
connection, satellites have no earth connection. Accept this and move on.

Radio on the Moon has the "earth connection". The Moon is smaller than the
Earth.
Do you think that "the earth" must be giant?

Your mobile phone has earth connection, radio on satellites and planes
have earth connection because they are on the chassis. Accept this and
move on.

Some antenna systems do have an earth connection, many don't.

All must have.

Some have them in order to work correctly, some have them for protection
against a lightening strike or a build up of static, some for both. Many
have no earth connection at all.

All must have for protection against the build up of static.
"Static electrical charge can build up to high values, even at times of no
thunderstorm activity,"
S*

The earth
 

"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
So the earth is necessary in your radio for the static reasons.
In my also:
"In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached
to
the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was grounded
at
the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure by an
adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed adjusting
the
impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by applying a DC
ground
at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct static charge to
ground
without diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build
up
to high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground. Use of this technique provides
better
lightning protection than using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is
standard at most mast radiators insulated against ground."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower

It seems to me that the same reasons were in Marconi times.

You have a big problem with comprehending, don't you?
Earlier you wrote that Marconi said that a capacitive coupling to ground
was good for HF grounding and now you want DC coupling to discharge
static electricity. Those two reasons for grounding are completely
different.

Each capacitor has the big surfaces and imperfect insulator between them.
Is it the "DC coupling to discharge static electricity"?

" You have a big problem with comprehending, don't you?"
S*

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Radio on the Moon has the "earth connection". The Moon is smaller than the
Earth.
Do you think that "the earth" must be giant?

Did we see the Apollo crew hammer a rod into the moon for the purpose
of connecting their radio system to it?

Your mobile phone has earth connection, radio on satellites and planes
have earth connection because they are on the chassis. Accept this and
move on.

You think "a chassis" is "earth connection"?
What is your definition of "earth connection"?

Some antenna systems do have an earth connection, many don't.

All must have.

You are being told NO, by people that know what they are talking about,
and you, the ultimate nitwit, are insisting that it is wrong?

If so, why are you asking the question at all?

Some have them in order to work correctly, some have them for protection
against a lightening strike or a build up of static, some for both. Many
have no earth connection at all.

All must have for protection against the build up of static.
"Static electrical charge can build up to high values, even at times of no
thunderstorm activity,"
S*

On a 628m tall mast, yes. But not on a cellphone.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"Rob" napisal w wiadomosci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:
So the earth is necessary in your radio for the static reasons.
In my also:
"In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached
to
the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was grounded
at
the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure by an
adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed adjusting
the
impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by applying a DC
ground
at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct static charge to
ground
without diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build
up
to high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground. Use of this technique provides
better
lightning protection than using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is
standard at most mast radiators insulated against ground."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower

It seems to me that the same reasons were in Marconi times.

You have a big problem with comprehending, don't you?
Earlier you wrote that Marconi said that a capacitive coupling to ground
was good for HF grounding and now you want DC coupling to discharge
static electricity. Those two reasons for grounding are completely
different.

Each capacitor has the big surfaces and imperfect insulator between them.
Is it the "DC coupling to discharge static electricity"?

No.

The earth
 

Uzytkownik "Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...


How many times do you need to be told? NO IT IS NOT TRUE, Marconi may
have
been correct when he made the statement considering the equipment and
practices at the time, BUT he was not correct as a statement concerning
radio systems in general. Things move on. Your mobile phone has no earth
connection, satellites have no earth connection. Accept this and move
on.

Radio on the Moon has the "earth connection". The Moon is smaller than
the
Earth.
Do you think that "the earth" must be giant?

You are misinterpreting what is meant by an 'Earth Connection'. Marconi
was referring to a direct connection to the soil, either by means of an
earth stake or wires buried in the ground.

Marconi explained what the 'Earth Connection' is:

""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

Your mobile phone has earth connection, radio on satellites and planes
have earth connection because they are on the chassis. Accept this and
move on.

No they don't have an 'earth connection'. The chassis is not an 'Earth
Connection'. Anyway it is perfectly possible the build a radio without any
connection to a chassis whatso ever and use a balanced antenna that also
requires no chassis or earth connection.

Accept the fact that earth connections are NOT required.

Are you better than Marconi?
S*

The earth
 

"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...


"Ian" napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
"Szczepan Bialek" wrote in message
...

Is even one textbooks where is wrote that Marconi was WRONG?

Are your transmitters without any earth?

I am checking from time to time if your knowledge have moved on.
S*


Hello Szczepan.

In general, you seem to be looking at outdated techniques and technology.

My radio doesn't need to be connected to ground/earth other than for
static/lightning reasons. The theory and technology of radio have made a
lot of progress since the time of Marconi.

Hope this is of some help.
Kindest regards from the UK,
Ian.

# Hello Ian,
#
# So the earth is necessary in your radio for the static reasons.
# In my also:
# "In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached
to
# the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was grounded
at
# the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure by an
# adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed adjusting
the
# impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by applying a DC
ground
# at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct static charge to
ground
# without diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build
up
# to high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
# structures are insulated from ground. Use of this technique provides
better
# lightning protection than using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is
# standard at most mast radiators insulated against ground."
# From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower
#
# It seems to me that the same reasons were in Marconi times.
#
# So I repeat my question:
#
# ""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
# questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
# exists
# where the instruments are not connected to earth."(Marconi in 1909).
#
# It is still true?
# S*

The answer is still NO. As pointed out by several others, there are
gazillions of radios operating without an "earth ground".

If one wants to connect an antenna to ground for lightning protection
reasons, that has nothing at all to do with antenna radiation.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:
Accept the fact that earth connections are NOT required.

Are you better than Marconi?
S*

Marconi made an incorrect claim, a claim we now know that is not true.
So, now we are better than Marconi be cause we all (except you) know that.
But that is not surprising after a century of evolution, isn't it.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

So the earth is necessary in your radio for the static reasons.

You have no clue what he is talking about.

In my also:
"In the lower half of the mast, there was a vertical steel tube, attached to
the mast's outer structure with large insulators. This tube was grounded at
the bottom, and connected electrically to the mast structure by an
adjustable metal bar at 328 metres.[2] This technique allowed adjusting the
impedance of the mast for the transmitter and worked by applying a DC ground
at a point of low radiofrequency voltage, to conduct static charge to ground
without diminishing the radio energy. Static electrical charge can build up
to high values, even at times of no thunderstorm activity, when such tall
structures are insulated from ground. Use of this technique provides better
lightning protection than using just a spark gap at the mast feed, as is
standard at most mast radiators insulated against ground."
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_radio_tower

It seems to me that the same reasons were in Marconi times.

So I repeat my question:

""The necessity or utility of the earth connection has been sometimes
questioned, but in my opinion no practical system of wireless telegraphy
exists
where the instruments are not connected to earth."(Marconi in 1909).

It is still true?
S*

It never was generally true.

You have been told this many times now.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

Radio on the Moon has the "earth connection". The Moon is smaller than the
Earth.
Do you think that "the earth" must be giant?

Idiot, meaningless babble.

Your mobile phone has earth connection, radio on satellites and planes
have earth connection because they are on the chassis. Accept this and
move on.

Some antenna systems do have an earth connection, many don't.

All must have.

No, that has never been true and you have been told so many times now.

You are a babbling idiot.

All must have for protection against the build up of static.

No, that is not always true either.

"Static electrical charge can build up to high values, even at times of no
thunderstorm activity,"
S*

Where is the ground on the Pioneer spacecraft at the edge of the solar system?

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

Uzytkownik "Jeff" napisal w wiadomosci
...


How many times do you need to be told? NO IT IS NOT TRUE, Marconi may
have
been correct when he made the statement considering the equipment and
practices at the time, BUT he was not correct as a statement concerning
radio systems in general. Things move on. Your mobile phone has no earth
connection, satellites have no earth connection. Accept this and move
on.

Radio on the Moon has the "earth connection". The Moon is smaller than
the
Earth.
Do you think that "the earth" must be giant?

You are misinterpreting what is meant by an 'Earth Connection'. Marconi
was referring to a direct connection to the soil, either by means of an
earth stake or wires buried in the ground.

Marconi explained what the 'Earth Connection' is:

""By "connected to earth" I do not necessarily mean an ordinary metallic
connection as used for ordinary wire telegraphs.
The earth wire may have a condenser in series with it, or it may be
connected to what is really equivalent, a capacity area placed close to the
surface of the ground (Fig. 4).
It is now perfectly well known that a condenser, if large enough, does not
prevent the passage of high frequency oscillations, and therefore in these
cases the earth is for all practical purposes connected to the antennae."

That is still a connection to the ground, you babbling idiot.

Your mobile phone has earth connection, radio on satellites and planes
have earth connection because they are on the chassis. Accept this and
move on.

No they don't have an 'earth connection'. The chassis is not an 'Earth
Connection'. Anyway it is perfectly possible the build a radio without any
connection to a chassis whatso ever and use a balanced antenna that also
requires no chassis or earth connection.

Accept the fact that earth connections are NOT required.

Are you better than Marconi?

Marconi did not have all the information we have today and therefor what he
said is NOT generally true but limited to some very specific situations.

Marconi was WRONG, you idiot.

Marconi was WRONG, you idiot.

Marconi was WRONG, you idiot.

Marconi was WRONG, you idiot.

The earth
 

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

Each capacitor has the big surfaces and imperfect insulator between them.

Wrong.

Is it the "DC coupling to discharge static electricity"?

Usually that and nothing more.

Marconi was WRONG.

Marconi was WRONG.