J. C. Mc Laughlin wrote:
Dear Rob: That is amazing. Very forward thinking. However, it seems to
use a lot of copper, some of which is latent waiting to be used. On the
other hand, the cost of running the 3 phase cable underground probably is
much more than the cost of the cable.

I would not be surprised if this system would be abandoned.
The operating companies of the electric grid have been changed from
state-owned into private companies, and we are already seeing the
deterioration resulting from such changes. This combined with the
high copper prices of today could surely mean that new connections
will be made single-phase.

In the North American scheme, most HV and LV cables are "in the air." This
tends to minimize the cost of running the cable and, too often, advantage is
taken of air-cooling to use what I believe to be wire that is too small.

We consider such systems ugly and unsafe. Even HV cables are sometimes
run underground, although this costs a lot of money. It is mainly done
in cases where residential areas have expanded to places where HV overhead
cables already existed.

Each of the disclosed systems has advantages and costs. It is fascinating
to see how different systems value the costs.

I think an important difference is "who is the decisionmaker".
Commercial companies tend to look only at costs, state-owned companies
tend to look more at environmental issues.

Thank you for expanding my knowledge. One wonders if you are a radio
amateur. 73, Mac N8TT

Yes I am, but I am not very active and only on VHF/UHF.

Dear Rob: It certainly seems that you have well described the
considerations.

Our houses tend to be farther apart, and low cost wins over potential
ugliness. Lack of safety is not believed. An earthed wire is run above the
HV 3-phase and does a good job of providing a low impedance path for
lighting. One side of the HV to LV transformer is earthed as well as the
center tap of the secondary (Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the
service entrance as is one end of the green wire running unimpeded to every
human touchable conductor. Additionally, the house wiring is run at half
the voltage common in Europe. Plugs and receptacles are standardized, which
makes almost certain the appliances are properly connected. (In the UK it
appears that appliances are sold without a plug and rely on the consumer to
do the right thing.)

You have so well said, in effect, that every group of people have a
different set of values that they place on things. If the money is
available, the system in the Netherlands is invisible, flexible (with
3-phase ready when needed), and with the use of the equivalence of a green
wire only diminished in safety from the NA system by using twice the
voltage.

Indeed, if I were planning the electrical distribution system for a research
laboratory, I would seriously consider using the Netherland scheme with half
the voltage.

Afraid VHF will not reach to the Netherlands. Warm regards and thanks,
Mac N8TT

"Rob" wrote in message ...

J. C. Mc Laughlin wrote:
Dear Rob: That is amazing. Very forward thinking. However, it seems to
use a lot of copper, some of which is latent waiting to be used. On the
other hand, the cost of running the 3 phase cable underground probably is
much more than the cost of the cable.

I would not be surprised if this system would be abandoned.
The operating companies of the electric grid have been changed from
state-owned into private companies, and we are already seeing the
deterioration resulting from such changes. This combined with the
high copper prices of today could surely mean that new connections
will be made single-phase.

In the North American scheme, most HV and LV cables are "in the air."
This
tends to minimize the cost of running the cable and, too often, advantage
is
taken of air-cooling to use what I believe to be wire that is too small.

We consider such systems ugly and unsafe. Even HV cables are sometimes
run underground, although this costs a lot of money. It is mainly done
in cases where residential areas have expanded to places where HV overhead
cables already existed.

Each of the disclosed systems has advantages and costs. It is fascinating
to see how different systems value the costs.

I think an important difference is "who is the decisionmaker".
Commercial companies tend to look only at costs, state-owned companies
tend to look more at environmental issues.

Thank you for expanding my knowledge. One wonders if you are a radio
amateur. 73, Mac N8TT

Yes I am, but I am not very active and only on VHF/UHF.


J. C. Mc Laughlin
Michigan U.S.A.
Home:

Jeff wrote:
Plugs and
receptacles are standardized, which makes almost certain the appliances
are properly connected. (In the UK it appears that appliances are sold
without a plug and rely on the consumer to do the right thing.)


Not so, it has been illegal to sell mains devices without an attached
plug for many years now in the UK. There is only 1 type of plug,
(excluding shavers sockets which are transformer isolated), which is
non-reversible and always has the provision for an earth (Not always
used with double insulated devices, but still the pin must be there,
sometimes in plastic). The sockets are shuttered to prevent accidental
'prodding' by little fingers.

Sure, and I think the plugs/sockets in use in the UK and those used
in the remainder of Europe are also much safer than the ones used
in the USA.
The USA types have the tendency to expose live pins when the plug is
partly removed, something that does not happen here.

"half the voltage" also doesn't matter much when the voltage is unsafe
to touch anyway. And it means "double the current" as well, which
increases the problem of overheating of bad contacts.

I'm sure the USA would go for a system like the European when it had
the chance to change. This is something that has been decided in the
past and is not so easy to change later, which is why it remains as it
is.

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .

An earthed wire is run above the HV 3-phase and does a good job of
providing a low impedance path for lighting. One side of the HV to LV
transformer is earthed as well as the center tap of the secondary
(Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the service entrance as is one
end of the green wire running unimpeded to every human touchable
conductor.

Is something flowing in the all earth wires?
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .

An earthed wire is run above the HV 3-phase and does a good job of
providing a low impedance path for lighting. One side of the HV to LV
transformer is earthed as well as the center tap of the secondary
(Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the service entrance as is one
end of the green wire running unimpeded to every human touchable
conductor.

Is something flowing in the all earth wires?

If you actually knew anything about electricity, which you don't, you
would know that under normal circumstances there is no current in the
earth ground connection.

The earth ground connection is for safety and current will only flow if
something is wrong.

This is also why radios powered by AC are connected to earth ground; it is
for safety against electrocution if something in the equipment breaks and
has NOTHING to do with the operation of the radio as a radio.

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .

An earthed wire is run above the HV 3-phase and does a good job of
providing a low impedance path for lighting. One side of the HV to LV
transformer is earthed as well as the center tap of the secondary
(Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the service entrance as is
one
end of the green wire running unimpeded to every human touchable
conductor.

Is something flowing in the all earth wires?

If you actually knew anything about electricity, which you don't, you
would know that under normal circumstances there is no current in the
earth ground connection.

In Poland under normal circumstances always is the electrons net flow into
the ground.

The earth ground connection is for safety and current will only flow if
something is wrong.

Where is such situation?

This is also why radios powered by AC are connected to earth ground; it is
for safety against electrocution if something in the equipment breaks and
has NOTHING to do with the operation of the radio as a radio.

In Poland in the all power AC lines is an exccess of electrons.
The ground is necessary.

The details are such that more electrons is gain in one half of the cycle
than jump off in the second.

What the things are in your country?
S*

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .

An earthed wire is run above the HV 3-phase and does a good job of
providing a low impedance path for lighting. One side of the HV to LV
transformer is earthed as well as the center tap of the secondary
(Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the service entrance as is
one
end of the green wire running unimpeded to every human touchable
conductor.

Is something flowing in the all earth wires?

If you actually knew anything about electricity, which you don't, you
would know that under normal circumstances there is no current in the
earth ground connection.

In Poland under normal circumstances always is the electrons net flow into
the ground.

In Poland is ignorant morons that know nothing about electricity babbling
stupid nonsense.

In the rest of the world it is as described above, i.e. there is no current
flow into ground unless something is broken.

Maybe in Poland everything is broken.


The earth ground connection is for safety and current will only flow if
something is wrong.

Where is such situation?

When something fails.

This is also why radios powered by AC are connected to earth ground; it is
for safety against electrocution if something in the equipment breaks and
has NOTHING to do with the operation of the radio as a radio.

In Poland in the all power AC lines is an exccess of electrons.
The ground is necessary.

In Poland is ignorant morons that know nothing about electricity babbling
stupid nonsense.

The details are such that more electrons is gain in one half of the cycle
than jump off in the second.

What the things are in your country?

Like all the rest of the world except Poland where nothing works correctly.

If you actually knew anything about electricity, which you don't, you
would know that under normal circumstances there is no current in the
earth ground connection.

In message , Szczepan Bialek
writes

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .

An earthed wire is run above the HV 3-phase and does a good job of
providing a low impedance path for lighting. One side of the HV to LV
transformer is earthed as well as the center tap of the secondary
(Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the service entrance as is
one
end of the green wire running unimpeded to every human touchable
conductor.

Is something flowing in the all earth wires?

If you actually knew anything about electricity, which you don't, you
would know that under normal circumstances there is no current in the
earth ground connection.

In Poland under normal circumstances always is the electrons net flow into
the ground.

The earth ground connection is for safety and current will only flow if
something is wrong.

Where is such situation?

This is also why radios powered by AC are connected to earth ground; it is
for safety against electrocution if something in the equipment breaks and
has NOTHING to do with the operation of the radio as a radio.

In Poland in the all power AC lines is an exccess of electrons.
The ground is necessary.

The details are such that more electrons is gain in one half of the cycle
than jump off in the second.

What the things are in your country?
S*

And what colour is the sky in your world?
--
Ian

Szczepan Bialek wrote:

napisa? w wiadomo?ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .

An earthed wire is run above the HV 3-phase and does a good job of
providing a low impedance path for lighting. One side of the HV to LV
transformer is earthed as well as the center tap of the secondary
(Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the service entrance as is
one
end of the green wire running unimpeded to every human touchable
conductor.

Is something flowing in the all earth wires?

If you actually knew anything about electricity, which you don't, you
would know that under normal circumstances there is no current in the
earth ground connection.

In Poland under normal circumstances always is the electrons net flow into
the ground.

I did something you are incapable of doing; I looked up the electrical
distribution system in Poland.

The distribution system in Poland is the same as the rest of Europe
and conforms to IEC 60446, which means, you babbling idiot, there is
no current in the ground connection unless there is a fault.

You are an ignorant, babbling, ineducable idiot that knows absolutely
nothing about anything related to electricity.

Eveything you post is stupid, utter, nonsesne.

"Ian Jackson" napisal w wiadomosci
...
In message , Szczepan Bialek
writes

napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
...
Szczepan Bialek wrote:

"J. C. Mc Laughlin" napisal w wiadomosci
.. .

An earthed wire is run above the HV 3-phase and does a good job of
providing a low impedance path for lighting. One side of the HV to LV
transformer is earthed as well as the center tap of the secondary
(Neutral). The neutral is again earthed at the service entrance as is
one
end of the green wire running unimpeded to every human touchable
conductor.

Is something flowing in the all earth wires?

If you actually knew anything about electricity, which you don't, you
would know that under normal circumstances there is no current in the
earth ground connection.

In Poland under normal circumstances always is the electrons net flow into
the ground.

The earth ground connection is for safety and current will only flow if
something is wrong.

Where is such situation?

This is also why radios powered by AC are connected to earth ground; it
is
for safety against electrocution if something in the equipment breaks
and
has NOTHING to do with the operation of the radio as a radio.

In Poland in the all power AC lines is an exccess of electrons.
The ground is necessary.

The details are such that more electrons is gain in one half of the cycle
than jump off in the second.

What the things are in your country?
S*

And what colour is the sky in your world?

It is not easy to describe it.
But in Poland the amateur-radio dipoles consists of the one radiator and the
counterpoise.
Simply speaking it is the Marconi antenna with the one radial.
S*
--
Ian