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#1
August 10th 03, 04:19 PM
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Well it would seem that the 'don't use motor oil' comment
which has been passed on by mouth to mouth over the decades doesn't seem to stand up to scruteny. Yes, the question is raised so many times over the years and the same old stories pop up, but without any substantiation such that it just appears to be gossip. One statement mentions attack on resisters, where's the proof, If it is true then it surely can be easily overcome. Hopefully this time, one of the many posters over the years on this subject will make observations that are relevant to the present day instead of waiting for a book. Art "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:4q8Za.31351$ff.14186@fed1read01... From the Google Group Search Engine: For what it is worth The Handbook (at least my 1990 edition) has some information on this subject. In the Station Accessories chapter there are plans to build a couple of Cantenna type dummy loads. They mention an oil sold by Texaco (if I remember correctly) for turbine lubrication that is, according to the author, the same oil as is used in transformers. They quote the exact product designation. Apparently, it's sold in minimum 5 gallon quantities and I think it's about $5 per gallon. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll look up the information and pass it along. It's supposed to be PCB-free, also. The article also cautions against using motor oil for various reasons, among which is that it attacks the resistor (actually, I think it's the additives that cause the problem). "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:fjUYa.31252$ff.5358@fed1read01... Jav -- asked many times before -- for the answers go to Groups Google.com http://groups.google.com/ I don,t fully understand why motor oil should not be used in a dummy load! I need to make one so I can calibrate one of my instruments. I intend to use one of the uptodate gallon paint cans that has a PTFE liner and solder the lid on. Since we now have the means to use low wattage signals for tuning up purposes there is obviously no reason to store it in the shack . So what really is the problem with using available oil instead of emulating the aproach of industrial transformers or regurgitating old thoughts ? Art Search for Oil For Cantenna or Oil For Dummy Load Mineral Oil works well for me. "Javier Henderson" wrote in message ... I got a Heathkit Cantenna recently, sans oil. Where do I find transformer oil? The few industrial suppliers in my area (Monterey, CA) want to sell me drums of the stuff. I only need a gallon... Is motor oil OK to use? 73, -jav w6vms |
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#3
August 11th 03, 01:49 PM
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Russ,
The point I am making is that some comments are repeated so many times they take a life of their own Think about it, the resistors of old are a far cry from the carbon resistors of today which are not as porous, if it is a worry then coat it with epoxy ! Then there is the "rust" question, the paint cans of today have a teflon liner ! Even the latest ham data states that motor oil CAN be used ( no, it will not explode !) but raise a question of "life", possibly a suggestive comment that you change the oil every 5000 qso's. Certainly industry gives a good guide as to what is the best to use for their circumstances but it doesn't rule out every thing else for all time, and this includes motor oil of which there are many types. Regards Art Russ wrote in message . .. On 10 Aug 2003 08:19:18 -0700, (Art Unwin KB9MZ) wrote: Well it would seem that the 'don't use motor oil' comment which has been passed on by mouth to mouth over the decades doesn't seem to stand up to scruteny. Yes, the question is raised so many times over the years and the same old stories pop up, but without any substantiation such that it just appears to be gossip. One statement mentions attack on resisters, where's the proof, If it is true then it surely can be easily overcome. Hopefully this time, one of the many posters over the years on this subject will make observations that are relevant to the present day instead of waiting for a book. Art Well Art, the detergents in modern motor oils are specifically formulated to dissolve carbon deposits and sludge (largely made up of carbon) and keep in in suspension. I'm pretty sure that the resistor in my Cantenna is carbon. Transformer oil is formulated to have a high dieletric strength. Mineral oil is relatively pure, lightweight petrolatum (like liquid Vaseline(r)) and has a pretty high dieletric strength just because of low impurities. Motor oil? I don't know. ATF? I don't know about that either. What I do know is that the designers of my dummy load specify either transformer oil or mineral oil. That's good enough for me. I'll mosey on down to the transformer shop of the local electric utility and buy the folks there a round of coffee in the morning or over to the veterinary supply and buy a gallon of mineral oil U. S. P. I think it's safer that way. We hams are in interestingly cheap lot. We'll spend thousands on a new rig that could break down tomorrow and then pour a gallon of "whatever" into the dummy load instead of spending twenty bucks for mineral oil or fifty bucks for MFJs transformer oil. This in a unit that with ordinary care will last a lifetime. Sheesh! Russ "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:4q8Za.31351$ff.14186@fed1read01... From the Google Group Search Engine: For what it is worth The Handbook (at least my 1990 edition) has some information on this subject. In the Station Accessories chapter there are plans to build a couple of Cantenna type dummy loads. They mention an oil sold by Texaco (if I remember correctly) for turbine lubrication that is, according to the author, the same oil as is used in transformers. They quote the exact product designation. Apparently, it's sold in minimum 5 gallon quantities and I think it's about $5 per gallon. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll look up the information and pass it along. It's supposed to be PCB-free, also. The article also cautions against using motor oil for various reasons, among which is that it attacks the resistor (actually, I think it's the additives that cause the problem). "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:fjUYa.31252$ff.5358@fed1read01... Jav -- asked many times before -- for the answers go to Groups Google.com http://groups.google.com/ I don,t fully understand why motor oil should not be used in a dummy load! I need to make one so I can calibrate one of my instruments. I intend to use one of the uptodate gallon paint cans that has a PTFE liner and solder the lid on. Since we now have the means to use low wattage signals for tuning up purposes there is obviously no reason to store it in the shack . So what really is the problem with using available oil instead of emulating the aproach of industrial transformers or regurgitating old thoughts ? Art Search for Oil For Cantenna or Oil For Dummy Load Mineral Oil works well for me. "Javier Henderson" wrote in message ... I got a Heathkit Cantenna recently, sans oil. Where do I find transformer oil? The few industrial suppliers in my area (Monterey, CA) want to sell me drums of the stuff. I only need a gallon... Is motor oil OK to use? 73, -jav w6vms |
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#4
August 13th 03, 12:58 AM
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#5
August 15th 03, 07:31 AM
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Perhaps that are types and grades of motor oil out there that will work with
certain types of resistors I dont think it very practical to research to find which are compatible. Perhaps the oil companies already know. You could make it a project to enquire with them and post the information on this news group. "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... Russ, The point I am making is that some comments are repeated so many times they take a life of their own Think about it, the resistors of old are a far cry from the carbon resistors of today which are not as porous, if it is a worry then coat it with epoxy ! Then there is the "rust" question, the paint cans of today have a teflon liner ! Even the latest ham data states that motor oil CAN be used ( no, it will not explode !) but raise a question of "life", possibly a suggestive comment that you change the oil every 5000 qso's. Certainly industry gives a good guide as to what is the best to use for their circumstances but it doesn't rule out every thing else for all time, and this includes motor oil of which there are many types. Regards Art Russ wrote in message . .. On 10 Aug 2003 08:19:18 -0700, (Art Unwin KB9MZ) wrote: Well it would seem that the 'don't use motor oil' comment which has been passed on by mouth to mouth over the decades doesn't seem to stand up to scruteny. Yes, the question is raised so many times over the years and the same old stories pop up, but without any substantiation such that it just appears to be gossip. One statement mentions attack on resisters, where's the proof, If it is true then it surely can be easily overcome. Hopefully this time, one of the many posters over the years on this subject will make observations that are relevant to the present day instead of waiting for a book. Art Well Art, the detergents in modern motor oils are specifically formulated to dissolve carbon deposits and sludge (largely made up of carbon) and keep in in suspension. I'm pretty sure that the resistor in my Cantenna is carbon. Transformer oil is formulated to have a high dieletric strength. Mineral oil is relatively pure, lightweight petrolatum (like liquid Vaseline(r)) and has a pretty high dieletric strength just because of low impurities. Motor oil? I don't know. ATF? I don't know about that either. What I do know is that the designers of my dummy load specify either transformer oil or mineral oil. That's good enough for me. I'll mosey on down to the transformer shop of the local electric utility and buy the folks there a round of coffee in the morning or over to the veterinary supply and buy a gallon of mineral oil U. S. P. I think it's safer that way. We hams are in interestingly cheap lot. We'll spend thousands on a new rig that could break down tomorrow and then pour a gallon of "whatever" into the dummy load instead of spending twenty bucks for mineral oil or fifty bucks for MFJs transformer oil. This in a unit that with ordinary care will last a lifetime. Sheesh! Russ "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:4q8Za.31351$ff.14186@fed1read01... From the Google Group Search Engine: For what it is worth The Handbook (at least my 1990 edition) has some information on this subject. In the Station Accessories chapter there are plans to build a couple of Cantenna type dummy loads. They mention an oil sold by Texaco (if I remember correctly) for turbine lubrication that is, according to the author, the same oil as is used in transformers. They quote the exact product designation. Apparently, it's sold in minimum 5 gallon quantities and I think it's about $5 per gallon. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll look up the information and pass it along. It's supposed to be PCB-free, also. The article also cautions against using motor oil for various reasons, among which is that it attacks the resistor (actually, I think it's the additives that cause the problem). "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:fjUYa.31252$ff.5358@fed1read01... Jav -- asked many times before -- for the answers go to Groups Google.com http://groups.google.com/ I don,t fully understand why motor oil should not be used in a dummy load! I need to make one so I can calibrate one of my instruments. I intend to use one of the uptodate gallon paint cans that has a PTFE liner and solder the lid on. Since we now have the means to use low wattage signals for tuning up purposes there is obviously no reason to store it in the shack . So what really is the problem with using available oil instead of emulating the aproach of industrial transformers or regurgitating old thoughts ? Art Search for Oil For Cantenna or Oil For Dummy Load Mineral Oil works well for me. "Javier Henderson" wrote in message ... I got a Heathkit Cantenna recently, sans oil. Where do I find transformer oil? The few industrial suppliers in my area (Monterey, CA) want to sell me drums of the stuff. I only need a gallon... Is motor oil OK to use? 73, -jav w6vms |
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#6
August 15th 03, 08:12 AM
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On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:31:04 GMT, "Jimmy"
wrote: Perhaps that are types and grades of motor oil out there that will work with certain types of resistors I dont think it very practical to research to find which are compatible. Perhaps the oil companies already know. You could make it a project to enquire with them and post the information on this news group. :-) It would make as much sense to fill the can with mud, add one electrode, and feed it against the shell. Some may no doubt find their life's mission in then determining what grade of oil (to replace the water) would improve this option. It would certainly offer more caloric mass than a resistor, is freely available, and all would quite agree - conductive and lossy. [How many errors can you find in this proposal? Submit answers on the back of a $20 bill and post to:] 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
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#7
August 15th 03, 06:08 PM
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Man, a simple question I asked, and it's still being debated!
I'll reserve my next question, "Can I store a battery on a bare concrete floor", for another slow day. 73, -jav w6vms |
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#8
August 16th 03, 04:03 AM
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On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:31:04 GMT, "Jimmy"
wrote: Perhaps that are types and grades of motor oil out there that will work with certain types of resistors I dont think it very practical to research to find which are compatible. Perhaps the oil companies already know. You could make it a project to enquire with them and post the information on this news group. Yeah, or hey! You could just use transformer oil. Art is being pedantic and difficult. Russ "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message om... Russ, The point I am making is that some comments are repeated so many times they take a life of their own Think about it, the resistors of old are a far cry from the carbon resistors of today which are not as porous, if it is a worry then coat it with epoxy ! Then there is the "rust" question, the paint cans of today have a teflon liner ! Even the latest ham data states that motor oil CAN be used ( no, it will not explode !) but raise a question of "life", possibly a suggestive comment that you change the oil every 5000 qso's. Certainly industry gives a good guide as to what is the best to use for their circumstances but it doesn't rule out every thing else for all time, and this includes motor oil of which there are many types. Regards Art Russ wrote in message ... On 10 Aug 2003 08:19:18 -0700, (Art Unwin KB9MZ) wrote: Well it would seem that the 'don't use motor oil' comment which has been passed on by mouth to mouth over the decades doesn't seem to stand up to scruteny. Yes, the question is raised so many times over the years and the same old stories pop up, but without any substantiation such that it just appears to be gossip. One statement mentions attack on resisters, where's the proof, If it is true then it surely can be easily overcome. Hopefully this time, one of the many posters over the years on this subject will make observations that are relevant to the present day instead of waiting for a book. Art Well Art, the detergents in modern motor oils are specifically formulated to dissolve carbon deposits and sludge (largely made up of carbon) and keep in in suspension. I'm pretty sure that the resistor in my Cantenna is carbon. Transformer oil is formulated to have a high dieletric strength. Mineral oil is relatively pure, lightweight petrolatum (like liquid Vaseline(r)) and has a pretty high dieletric strength just because of low impurities. Motor oil? I don't know. ATF? I don't know about that either. What I do know is that the designers of my dummy load specify either transformer oil or mineral oil. That's good enough for me. I'll mosey on down to the transformer shop of the local electric utility and buy the folks there a round of coffee in the morning or over to the veterinary supply and buy a gallon of mineral oil U. S. P. I think it's safer that way. We hams are in interestingly cheap lot. We'll spend thousands on a new rig that could break down tomorrow and then pour a gallon of "whatever" into the dummy load instead of spending twenty bucks for mineral oil or fifty bucks for MFJs transformer oil. This in a unit that with ordinary care will last a lifetime. Sheesh! Russ "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:4q8Za.31351$ff.14186@fed1read01... From the Google Group Search Engine: For what it is worth The Handbook (at least my 1990 edition) has some information on this subject. In the Station Accessories chapter there are plans to build a couple of Cantenna type dummy loads. They mention an oil sold by Texaco (if I remember correctly) for turbine lubrication that is, according to the author, the same oil as is used in transformers. They quote the exact product designation. Apparently, it's sold in minimum 5 gallon quantities and I think it's about $5 per gallon. If anyone's interested, let me know and I'll look up the information and pass it along. It's supposed to be PCB-free, also. The article also cautions against using motor oil for various reasons, among which is that it attacks the resistor (actually, I think it's the additives that cause the problem). "Art Unwin KB9MZ" wrote in message m... "Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:fjUYa.31252$ff.5358@fed1read01... Jav -- asked many times before -- for the answers go to Groups Google.com http://groups.google.com/ I don,t fully understand why motor oil should not be used in a dummy load! I need to make one so I can calibrate one of my instruments. I intend to use one of the uptodate gallon paint cans that has a PTFE liner and solder the lid on. Since we now have the means to use low wattage signals for tuning up purposes there is obviously no reason to store it in the shack . So what really is the problem with using available oil instead of emulating the aproach of industrial transformers or regurgitating old thoughts ? Art Search for Oil For Cantenna or Oil For Dummy Load Mineral Oil works well for me. "Javier Henderson" wrote in message ... I got a Heathkit Cantenna recently, sans oil. Where do I find transformer oil? The few industrial suppliers in my area (Monterey, CA) want to sell me drums of the stuff. I only need a gallon... Is motor oil OK to use? 73, -jav w6vms |
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#9
August 13th 03, 01:23 PM
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is far motor oil (if you have to use it ) use "nd 30" (or 40 ,20,50 the
weight is not important) the "nd" is non detergent, to not dissolve carbon i tend to agree try to find an oil closer to what's "right" bob |
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#10
August 13th 03, 03:39 PM
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Actually, the viscosity (the number indicates viscosity, not weight or
density) is important. The lower the number the better. That's one of the reasons transformer oil is better for transformers and dummy loads than drug store mineral oil - it has lower viscosity. The lower the viscosity the more easily convection currents transfer heat from the dummy load into the fluid and from the fluid to the can. That means lower thermal resistance, giving a lower resistor temperature for a given power dissipation. 73, Bob AD3K BOB wrote: is far motor oil (if you have to use it ) use "nd 30" (or 40 ,20,50 the weight is not important) the "nd" is non detergent, to not dissolve carbon i tend to agree try to find an oil closer to what's "right" bob -- Robert L. Spooner Registered Professional Engineer Associate Research Engineer Intelligent Control Systems Department Applied Research Laboratory Phone: (814) 863-4120 The Pennsylvania State University FAX: (814) 863-7841 P. O. Box 30 State College, PA 16804-0030 |
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