On 5/10/2013 8:26 AM, Tom wrote:
Hi again

Sorry, I know I asked this question a couple years ago or a similiar one.

I am stumbled again and I don't want to ruin my batteries so I thought I
would ask the pros again.

I have two Marine deep cycle 750 A Nautaulis Canadian Tire Batteries.
225min/115 ah model number is 10-3199-0. These are the bit bigger
batteries about 40 lbs.

I also have the 10am/2am Automatic Canadian Tire 11-1567-0 battery charger.

I have had these batteries in my garage all winter and about once every
month or 50 days I would bring them up to full charge. Takes about 25 or
30 hours at 10 amp charging until that GREEN light comes on and
automatically shutting off.

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on. They are just
sitting there bubbling away, I actually had to put about a litre or two
into each of Reverse Osmosis water in to them because I could see they
were low. But the green light will not come on and they keep charging.
About 3 days now.

I took both batteries down to Canadian Tire and the chap used a little
hand tool electronic device that pumped me out a receipt thing (EXP800)
and this battery test told me that the batteries are GOOD. Voltage is
12.63 for one and the other was 12.68 for the other. They measured 922
CCA and 684 CCA (both rated for 750A) so he said they are good. Temp was
19C


I asked him why the green light doesn't come on and the charging stop
but he said because the batteries are fully charged and good that the
charger must be good. And it is good because I used it on another deep
cycle battery I have and the green light came on and it stopped when
fullly charged.

I see the needle is close to the green on the meter but just not moving
over and continues charging at 10 amps with the bigger batteries in
question.

Batteries are almost 4 years old.

Any ideas or comments? Should I stop the charging? or continue until
that green light comes on like it used to? I would like to get a few
more years from these batteries . All coments are appreciated, cheap or
otherwise, I appreciate your expertise very much. Sorry the question is
OFF Topic, but I know you folks have the answer better than the boating
groups. thnx

Best regards and thanks

73s


Hi Tom.

What you want is a 3 stage charger. The guy who said the old "clunk",
relay based, chargers are best is way off base.

A decent 3 stage charger lets you set a number of things, all of which
are tailored to your specific battery string.

I have a set with an 80 AH and an 160 AH AGM 12V battery. I charge
using a 200W solar array through a maximum power point 3 stage charger.
The MPP part isn't relevant for you, but the 3 stage adjustments plus
a battery temperature sensor are. You can set battery finish voltage
per manufacturer specs at a specific temperature and then the sensor
drives the rest based on current temperature. The 3 stages finish the
charge the correct way and don't overcharge the string or cause
excessive water loss.

tom
K0TAR

On 5/11/2013 8:14 PM, tom wrote:
Hi Tom.

What you want is a 3 stage charger. The guy who said the old "clunk",
relay based, chargers are best is way off base.

A decent 3 stage charger lets you set a number of things, all of which
are tailored to your specific battery string.

I have a set with an 80 AH and an 160 AH AGM 12V battery. I charge
using a 200W solar array through a maximum power point 3 stage charger.
The MPP part isn't relevant for you, but the 3 stage adjustments plus
a battery temperature sensor are. You can set battery finish voltage
per manufacturer specs at a specific temperature and then the sensor
drives the rest based on current temperature. The 3 stages finish the
charge the correct way and don't overcharge the string or cause
excessive water loss.

tom
K0TAR



Oops, forgot what I had. Put the string together last year from a 9
year old 66AH and a 4 year old 133AH battery. Each removed from a UPS
system. I've had the 66AH for 6 years on intelligent solar controllers.
Got the 133 last summer for $100 used. Upgraded my solar array to
200w from 33w and upgraded the controller to a 25 amp Solar Boost 2000e.

They sat from November to end of April with no charging. I checked the
voltage last week before I pulled the camper out of the garage for its
first light of the year - 12.80 volts. That is in the excellent range
after 5 months idle.

Best buys on AGM batteries is to look for 3 to 5 year old ones being
rotated out from data centers that demand high reliablity. They are
usually rated for at least a 20 year life. And are 0 maintenance to boot.

tom
K0TAR

On 5/11/2013 8:34 PM, tom wrote:

Best buys on AGM batteries is to look for 3 to 5 year old ones being
rotated out from data centers that demand high reliablity. They are
usually rated for at least a 20 year life. And are 0 maintenance to boot.

tom
K0TAR


And finding the used ones isn't hard. I found the 133AH on craigs list.

Be sure to buy identical types. My 2 are not the same AH rating but are
from the same line by the same manufacturer.

tom
K0TAR

On Sat, 11 May 2013 11:07:42 -0600, "Irv Finkleman"
wrote:

My God! A Ham waiting till his bench is clean! Hah!
Irv VE6BP

Yes, I know. A clean workbench is a sign of a sick mind.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/chain-saw-repair.html
It's currently not quite as messy, but it's close.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

Yes, I know. A clean workbench is a sign of a sick mind.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/chain-saw-repair.html
It's currently not quite as messy, but it's close.


Looks like you have an antenna harness for phasing 2 meter antennas. Is the
chain saw apart to put the co-phased antennas on ? hihi..

On Sun, 12 May 2013 16:34:53 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .

Yes, I know. A clean workbench is a sign of a sick mind.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/chain-saw-repair.html
It's currently not quite as messy, but it's close.

Looks like you have an antenna harness for phasing 2 meter antennas.

I guess you mean the Wilkinson power divider/splitter in the lower
left. It's not for phasing antennas, but for combining the signals
from two receive only 1090MHz antennas for ADS-B reception. The lines
are 3/4 electrical wavelengths long RG-6a/u because I couldn't find
any small diameter 75 ohm coax. That was a prototype I just threw
together to see if I really needed the 100 ohm resistor for receive
only. With low gain antennas, it's not needed. For high gain, where
impedance matching is more important, it's needed.

Is the
chain saw apart to put the co-phased antennas on ? hihi..

The chain saw has nothing to do with RF, unless you include using the
trees as supports for various HF antennas. In this case, the only
thing wrong with the saw was that the fuel line split and started
leaking. In order to replace a simple fuel line, I had to tear down
the saw completely. I used the occasion to also clean out the
accumulated crud, clean the carb, replace various filters, clean the
carbon out of the exhaust port, and do the usual tuneup. Right now,
the bench has two weed whackers torn apart. Since I took them apart
about 2 weeks ago, I don't remember which parts belong to which
engine. This should be interesting...




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 10 May 2013 23:36:44 -0400, rickman wrote:

Just like much of the equipment on the railroad, they had
batteries in service for many, many years. I believe I was told they
would be expected to last some 20 years. They looked like car
batteries, not anything special like the huge ones they use at the phone
company. The point is that they used a trickle charge.

Presumably, those were flooded wet cell batteries, not AGM. I don't
think that will work. Flooded cells lose about 1% of their charge per
day due to self discharge. A trickle charger just can't keep up.
However, AGM only loses 1% to 3% per month, which should work well
with a trickle charger.

But then there may be differences in batteries.

Yep. Flooded versus AGM.

These were some 40 years ago and I believe
this was before they started adding small amounts of cadmium or similar
things to reduce the need for adding water, etc. Maybe trickle charging
is no longer recommended. But back then that was what the battery
makers wanted you to do to prevent damage, trickle charge.

One thing nice about trickle charging (and float charging) is that it
seems to reduce suflation.

Have you thought of contacting the company directly rather than through
the stores? I bet their web site has some good info on this.

My conspiracy theory of battery charging is that if you ask the
battery vendor how to maintain and charge their batteries, they will
direct you to the best way to kill the battery, so that you will buy
more batteries. I suspect you may do better asking the battery
charger vendors, who have a financial interest in keeping the
batteries alive.

Mo
http://batteryuniversity.com
http://www.mpoweruk.com
http://www.mpoweruk.com/chargers.htm


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 May 2013 16:34:53 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
. ..

Yes, I know. A clean workbench is a sign of a sick mind.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/chain-saw-repair.html
It's currently not quite as messy, but it's close.

Looks like you have an antenna harness for phasing 2 meter antennas.

I guess you mean the Wilkinson power divider/splitter in the lower
left. It's not for phasing antennas, but for combining the signals
from two receive only 1090MHz antennas for ADS-B reception. The lines
are 3/4 electrical wavelengths long RG-6a/u because I couldn't find
any small diameter 75 ohm coax. That was a prototype I just threw
together to see if I really needed the 100 ohm resistor for receive
only. With low gain antennas, it's not needed. For high gain, where
impedance matching is more important, it's needed.


I know about the Wilkinsson devider. Not sure if it is done now, but the
CBers would put two antennas on their cars and especially the big trucks.
Feed them with a T and 1/4 wavelengths of coax if I recall corectly.
Thought you were going to do that to the chain saw for 2 meters to help out
your handy talkey while sawing wood. As if you could hear it over the
noise.

I have not looked over the power devider in a long time. I was thinking the
100 ohm resistor was mainly to absorbe the unballanced power. If everything
was matched you could leave it out, but as you well know, nothing is perfect
in the RF world.

What are you using for a receiver for the ADS-B ? I have one of the dongles
that plugs into the usb of a computer on order. Should be here Monday. It
tunes from about 25 MHz to over 1 Ghz from the writeups. Off ebay here is
the item number.
310655269457

I don' t see how they can make and ship a device like that for only $ 11.00.

On Sun, 12 May 2013 17:56:21 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 12 May 2013 16:34:53 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...

Yes, I know. A clean workbench is a sign of a sick mind.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/chain-saw-repair.html
It's currently not quite as messy, but it's close.

Looks like you have an antenna harness for phasing 2 meter antennas.

I guess you mean the Wilkinson power divider/splitter in the lower
left. It's not for phasing antennas, but for combining the signals
from two receive only 1090MHz antennas for ADS-B reception. The lines
are 3/4 electrical wavelengths long RG-6a/u because I couldn't find
any small diameter 75 ohm coax. That was a prototype I just threw
together to see if I really needed the 100 ohm resistor for receive
only. With low gain antennas, it's not needed. For high gain, where
impedance matching is more important, it's needed.

I know about the Wilkinsson devider. Not sure if it is done now, but the
CBers would put two antennas on their cars and especially the big trucks.
Feed them with a T and 1/4 wavelengths of coax if I recall corectly.

Yep. It was called a "co-phasing harness". Basically, the same thing
as a Wilkinson power divider. The original purpose was to deal with
the problem that the truckers were having with mounting antennas on
their big rigs. The antenna could not be mounted on top of the
tractor or trailer because the weight scale operators did not like
antennas smashing into the overhead clearance gauges. However, one
antenna on the side of the tractor didn't work very well because it
blocked signals on the other side. Two antennas were just fine. The
only problem was that while in receive, there was little loss from
either antenna, in transmit, the power was split equally between
sides. To compensate, doubling the transmit power was deemed
necessary. It worked.

At the time 1973(?), I was working on an ill fated CB related project
that would eventually have Antenna Specialists' name on it. I
discussed the co-phasing harness problem with one of their engineers.
He mumbled something about it being a great way to double antenna
sales. The rest you can guess.

Thought you were going to do that to the chain saw for 2 meters to help out
your handy talkey while sawing wood. As if you could hear it over the
noise.

Yacking on the radio while operating a rather dangerous piece of
machinery is not a great idea. If someone wants to yell at me, they
can wait until I'm done sawing.

I have not looked over the power devider in a long time. I was thinking the
100 ohm resistor was mainly to absorbe the unballanced power. If everything
was matched you could leave it out, but as you well know, nothing is perfect
in the RF world.

True for a splitter. Not quite so true for a combiner. It's main
purpose it to provide the best possible isolation between input ports.
The phase shift through the *TWO* 1/4 wave lines, combined through the
100 ohm resistor, exactly cancel, which provides the necessary
isolation. If you look at the specs for a combiner, you'll see the
isolation specification.

What are you using for a receiver for the ADS-B ?

One of the receive stations for one of the aircraft monitoring
networks.
http://planefinder.net
http://my.pinkfroot.com
http://Flightradar24.com

I have one of the dongles
that plugs into the usb of a computer on order. Should be here Monday. It
tunes from about 25 MHz to over 1 Ghz from the writeups. Off ebay here is
the item number.
310655269457
I don' t see how they can make and ship a device like that for only $ 11.00.

Yep, very cheap. I couldn't afford to ship an empty box for that
price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310655269457
There are numerous projects on the web for turning it into everything
from a spectrum analyzer to a radio scanner.
http://www.hamradioscience.com/building-an-inexpensive-ads-b-receiving-and-sharing-station/
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/xpsa/index.html
I could use one of those RTL8232U dongles, but I have a different
problem to solve. 1090MHz is in the middle of the frequencies used by
DME (distance measuring equip) which provides a challenge in
interference reduction using DSP. The receivers will probably be
located in the middle of transmitter infested mountain tops, which
means they need a really good IM tolerant front end. The antenna
problem is also unique in that it requires maximum gain toward the
horizon in order to maximize range, but also must still have some gain
overhead to hear closer aircraft. I combine two antennas for the
purpose.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/antennas/AMOS-3-INV-1090Mhz/index.html


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
Yep. It was called a "co-phasing harness". Basically, the same thing
as a Wilkinson power divider. The original purpose was to deal with
the problem that the truckers were having with mounting antennas on
their big rigs. The antenna could not be mounted on top of the
tractor or trailer because the weight scale operators did not like
antennas smashing into the overhead clearance gauges. However, one
antenna on the side of the tractor didn't work very well because it
blocked signals on the other side. Two antennas were just fine. The
only problem was that while in receive, there was little loss from
either antenna, in transmit, the power was split equally between
sides. To compensate, doubling the transmit power was deemed
necessary. It worked.

At the time 1973(?), I was working on an ill fated CB related project
that would eventually have Antenna Specialists' name on it. I
discussed the co-phasing harness problem with one of their engineers.
He mumbled something about it being a great way to double antenna
sales. The rest you can guess.


During that period of time I repaired things for the CBers to pick up some
extra spending money. I was thinking there was a mobile antenna system that
you mounted two antennas and had a switch box that phased them for differant
directions. Don't believe it worked too well as the antennas were usually
too close together. The the base station 'scanner' antenna was devoloped
using 3 verticals in a triangle patern several feet apart. Seemed to work
ok for what it was.

During that period of time, I think Antenna Specialists' made up much of the
CB antenna sales.

Only double the power,, many of the ones I knew ran 50 to 100 watts in the
mobiles back in the 70's . During those years you could sell almost
anything to the CB. Much like for the last number of years you can sell to
the audio/hifi people. Best scam I know of is the wire going from the hifi
to the wall socket. For about $ 120 you get 6 to 8 feet of 'special wire'
Even if it was special that would not account for the wire going from the
outlet to the breaker box and then to th epole transformer..