Hi again

Sorry, I know I asked this question a couple years ago or a similiar one.

I am stumbled again and I don't want to ruin my batteries so I thought I
would ask the pros again.

I have two Marine deep cycle 750 A Nautaulis Canadian Tire Batteries.
225min/115 ah model number is 10-3199-0. These are the bit bigger
batteries about 40 lbs.

I also have the 10am/2am Automatic Canadian Tire 11-1567-0 battery charger.

I have had these batteries in my garage all winter and about once every
month or 50 days I would bring them up to full charge. Takes about 25 or 30
hours at 10 amp charging until that GREEN light comes on and automatically
shutting off.

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on. They are just
sitting there bubbling away, I actually had to put about a litre or two into
each of Reverse Osmosis water in to them because I could see they were low.
But the green light will not come on and they keep charging. About 3 days
now.

I took both batteries down to Canadian Tire and the chap used a little hand
tool electronic device that pumped me out a receipt thing (EXP800) and this
battery test told me that the batteries are GOOD. Voltage is 12.63 for one
and the other was 12.68 for the other. They measured 922 CCA and 684 CCA
(both rated for 750A) so he said they are good. Temp was 19C


I asked him why the green light doesn't come on and the charging stop but he
said because the batteries are fully charged and good that the charger must
be good. And it is good because I used it on another deep cycle battery I
have and the green light came on and it stopped when fullly charged.

I see the needle is close to the green on the meter but just not moving over
and continues charging at 10 amps with the bigger batteries in question.

Batteries are almost 4 years old.

Any ideas or comments? Should I stop the charging? or continue until that
green light comes on like it used to? I would like to get a few more years
from these batteries . All coments are appreciated, cheap or otherwise, I
appreciate your expertise very much. Sorry the question is OFF Topic, but I
know you folks have the answer better than the boating groups. thnx

Best regards and thanks

73s

On 5/10/2013 8:26 AM, Tom wrote:
Hi again

Sorry, I know I asked this question a couple years ago or a similiar one.

I am stumbled again and I don't want to ruin my batteries so I thought I
would ask the pros again.

I have two Marine deep cycle 750 A Nautaulis Canadian Tire Batteries.
225min/115 ah model number is 10-3199-0. These are the bit bigger
batteries about 40 lbs.

I also have the 10am/2am Automatic Canadian Tire 11-1567-0 battery charger.

I have had these batteries in my garage all winter and about once every
month or 50 days I would bring them up to full charge. Takes about 25 or
30 hours at 10 amp charging until that GREEN light comes on and
automatically shutting off.

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on. They are just
sitting there bubbling away, I actually had to put about a litre or two
into each of Reverse Osmosis water in to them because I could see they
were low. But the green light will not come on and they keep charging.
About 3 days now.

I took both batteries down to Canadian Tire and the chap used a little
hand tool electronic device that pumped me out a receipt thing (EXP800)
and this battery test told me that the batteries are GOOD. Voltage is
12.63 for one and the other was 12.68 for the other. They measured 922
CCA and 684 CCA (both rated for 750A) so he said they are good. Temp was
19C


I asked him why the green light doesn't come on and the charging stop
but he said because the batteries are fully charged and good that the
charger must be good. And it is good because I used it on another deep
cycle battery I have and the green light came on and it stopped when
fullly charged.

I see the needle is close to the green on the meter but just not moving
over and continues charging at 10 amps with the bigger batteries in
question.

Batteries are almost 4 years old.

Any ideas or comments? Should I stop the charging? or continue until
that green light comes on like it used to? I would like to get a few
more years from these batteries . All coments are appreciated, cheap or
otherwise, I appreciate your expertise very much. Sorry the question is
OFF Topic, but I know you folks have the answer better than the boating
groups. thnx

Best regards and thanks

73s



I can't really tell if your batteries are any good. His tester may not
be that good. I do know how to keep batteries alive for years in my
home. I have an elaborate security system run from a bank of 12 volt
batteries. These batteries each has their own automatic charter.
Automatic means that when the batteries reach full charge the charger
shuts off until the battery needs to be charged again.

Most of the newer style digital looking chargers simply don't work. The
older style that make a clunk sound when they start charging are the
good ones. They shut completely off to prevent over charging and let the
battery run down until it needs charging again. This has worked for me
for many years.

Michael

Yes, sounds like you have your system figured out and it works. On the exact
same receipt paper thing that the Canadian Tire guy's machine tested had the
comment on each test result paper " Avg life in area : 46 MO. So that
isn't very long and my last batteries (same style) lasted 8 years. After
asking the group this question years ago I have put my batteries on a better
program and care for them better.

My charger makes that "chunk" noise you mentioned when I plug it in.

The Chap at Canadian Tire just couldn't tell me anymore, he didn't have the
knowledge, very nice guy, very smart (and handsome) but didn't have the
knowledge of deep cycle marine batteries and their proper maintenance. Which
is probably good idea, however I know this group has the knowledge, lots of
nice guys, (very handsome also) so I like to hear your opinions. The cheap
ones are good also.

Thanks and enjoy the day

73s





"seediq" wrote in message
...
On 5/10/2013 8:26 AM, Tom wrote:
Hi again

Sorry, I know I asked this question a couple years ago or a similiar one.

I am stumbled again and I don't want to ruin my batteries so I thought I
would ask the pros again.

I have two Marine deep cycle 750 A Nautaulis Canadian Tire Batteries.
225min/115 ah model number is 10-3199-0. These are the bit bigger
batteries about 40 lbs.

I also have the 10am/2am Automatic Canadian Tire 11-1567-0 battery
charger.

I have had these batteries in my garage all winter and about once every
month or 50 days I would bring them up to full charge. Takes about 25 or
30 hours at 10 amp charging until that GREEN light comes on and
automatically shutting off.

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on. They are just
sitting there bubbling away, I actually had to put about a litre or two
into each of Reverse Osmosis water in to them because I could see they
were low. But the green light will not come on and they keep charging.
About 3 days now.

I took both batteries down to Canadian Tire and the chap used a little
hand tool electronic device that pumped me out a receipt thing (EXP800)
and this battery test told me that the batteries are GOOD. Voltage is
12.63 for one and the other was 12.68 for the other. They measured 922
CCA and 684 CCA (both rated for 750A) so he said they are good. Temp was
19C


I asked him why the green light doesn't come on and the charging stop
but he said because the batteries are fully charged and good that the
charger must be good. And it is good because I used it on another deep
cycle battery I have and the green light came on and it stopped when
fullly charged.

I see the needle is close to the green on the meter but just not moving
over and continues charging at 10 amps with the bigger batteries in
question.

Batteries are almost 4 years old.

Any ideas or comments? Should I stop the charging? or continue until
that green light comes on like it used to? I would like to get a few
more years from these batteries . All coments are appreciated, cheap or
otherwise, I appreciate your expertise very much. Sorry the question is
OFF Topic, but I know you folks have the answer better than the boating
groups. thnx

Best regards and thanks

73s



I can't really tell if your batteries are any good. His tester may not be
that good. I do know how to keep batteries alive for years in my home. I
have an elaborate security system run from a bank of 12 volt batteries.
These batteries each has their own automatic charter. Automatic means that
when the batteries reach full charge the charger shuts off until the
battery needs to be charged again.

Most of the newer style digital looking chargers simply don't work. The
older style that make a clunk sound when they start charging are the good
ones. They shut completely off to prevent over charging and let the
battery run down until it needs charging again. This has worked for me for
many years.

Michael

El 10-05-13 15:26, Tom escribió:
Hi again

Sorry, I know I asked this question a couple years ago or a similiar one.

I am stumbled again and I don't want to ruin my batteries so I thought
I would ask the pros again.

I have two Marine deep cycle 750 A Nautaulis Canadian Tire Batteries.
225min/115 ah model number is 10-3199-0. These are the bit bigger
batteries about 40 lbs.

I also have the 10am/2am Automatic Canadian Tire 11-1567-0 battery
charger.

I have had these batteries in my garage all winter and about once
every month or 50 days I would bring them up to full charge. Takes
about 25 or 30 hours at 10 amp charging until that GREEN light comes
on and automatically shutting off.

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on. They are just
sitting there bubbling away, I actually had to put about a litre or
two into each of Reverse Osmosis water in to them because I could see
they were low. But the green light will not come on and they keep
charging. About 3 days now.

I took both batteries down to Canadian Tire and the chap used a little
hand tool electronic device that pumped me out a receipt thing
(EXP800) and this battery test told me that the batteries are GOOD.
Voltage is 12.63 for one and the other was 12.68 for the other. They
measured 922 CCA and 684 CCA (both rated for 750A) so he said they are
good. Temp was 19C


I asked him why the green light doesn't come on and the charging stop
but he said because the batteries are fully charged and good that the
charger must be good. And it is good because I used it on another deep
cycle battery I have and the green light came on and it stopped when
fullly charged.

I see the needle is close to the green on the meter but just not
moving over and continues charging at 10 amps with the bigger
batteries in question.

Batteries are almost 4 years old.

Any ideas or comments? Should I stop the charging? or continue until
that green light comes on like it used to? I would like to get a few
more years from these batteries . All coments are appreciated, cheap
or otherwise, I appreciate your expertise very much. Sorry the
question is OFF Topic, but I know you folks have the answer better
than the boating groups. thnx

Best regards and thanks

73s


Hello Tom,

Can you measure the voltage when the charger is charging the batteries
(after charging your full batteries for an hour or more)? When it
reads 14.8V, your charger is only generating gas and you are
reducing the service life of the battery (and you need to add demi
water).

You may also measure the battery open load voltage after leaving it
some days without any load (no charger connected). When it reads the
values you mentioned (12.68V), there is no leakage in one of the cells
and the battery is fully charged.

I have no idea about the charge modes of your charger, maybe some
voltage or current setting changed over time. For example when the
charging voltage drifts up during aging, the charge current remains
relatively high so that the charger thinks it still needs charge. Some
chargers have a current measurement. Once the current drops below a
certain value, the charger changes to maintenance charge (that means
it reduces the charge voltage to avoid/reduce gassing).


--
Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl
Please remove abc first in case of PM

Hi Wim
THanks for the response

Yes, great, I will make the measurement on the battery after one hour of
charging (while charging it) at 10amps to see if it measures greater than
14.8 volts. That may answer my concern.

If it remains under the 14.8v mark should I just keep it charging? My
charger is the automatic style that shuts off when it knows the battery is
fully charged. It has the meter on the front and always starts off near the
red then goes through the yellow part of the meter then when in the green
part of the meter it shuts off and the green light comes on. If left like
this the charger will cycle back on after a while for very short time then
off then on, etc etc, does that mean it is losing its charge just sitting
there? Is that ok or the sign of a dead or dying battery? Recently it just
doesn't shut off and stays charging. I will measure its voltage at this
stage.

I will also measure to see if it is holding the voltage after a few days of
nothing. I have a digital volt meter and can measure that easily.

Thanks

Tom







"Wimpie" wrote in message
abel.net...
El 10-05-13 15:26, Tom escribió:
Hi again

Sorry, I know I asked this question a couple years ago or a similiar one.

I am stumbled again and I don't want to ruin my batteries so I thought
I would ask the pros again.

I have two Marine deep cycle 750 A Nautaulis Canadian Tire Batteries.
225min/115 ah model number is 10-3199-0. These are the bit bigger
batteries about 40 lbs.

I also have the 10am/2am Automatic Canadian Tire 11-1567-0 battery
charger.

I have had these batteries in my garage all winter and about once
every month or 50 days I would bring them up to full charge. Takes
about 25 or 30 hours at 10 amp charging until that GREEN light comes
on and automatically shutting off.

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on. They are just
sitting there bubbling away, I actually had to put about a litre or
two into each of Reverse Osmosis water in to them because I could see
they were low. But the green light will not come on and they keep
charging. About 3 days now.

I took both batteries down to Canadian Tire and the chap used a little
hand tool electronic device that pumped me out a receipt thing
(EXP800) and this battery test told me that the batteries are GOOD.
Voltage is 12.63 for one and the other was 12.68 for the other. They
measured 922 CCA and 684 CCA (both rated for 750A) so he said they are
good. Temp was 19C


I asked him why the green light doesn't come on and the charging stop
but he said because the batteries are fully charged and good that the
charger must be good. And it is good because I used it on another deep
cycle battery I have and the green light came on and it stopped when
fullly charged.

I see the needle is close to the green on the meter but just not
moving over and continues charging at 10 amps with the bigger
batteries in question.

Batteries are almost 4 years old.

Any ideas or comments? Should I stop the charging? or continue until
that green light comes on like it used to? I would like to get a few
more years from these batteries . All coments are appreciated, cheap
or otherwise, I appreciate your expertise very much. Sorry the
question is OFF Topic, but I know you folks have the answer better
than the boating groups. thnx

Best regards and thanks

73s


Hello Tom,

Can you measure the voltage when the charger is charging the batteries
(after charging your full batteries for an hour or more)? When it reads
14.8V, your charger is only generating gas and you are reducing the
service life of the battery (and you need to add demi water).

You may also measure the battery open load voltage after leaving it some
days without any load (no charger connected). When it reads the values you
mentioned (12.68V), there is no leakage in one of the cells and the
battery is fully charged.

I have no idea about the charge modes of your charger, maybe some voltage
or current setting changed over time. For example when the charging
voltage drifts up during aging, the charge current remains relatively high
so that the charger thinks it still needs charge. Some chargers have a
current measurement. Once the current drops below a certain value, the
charger changes to maintenance charge (that means it reduces the charge
voltage to avoid/reduce gassing).


--
Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl
Please remove abc first in case of PM

On 5/10/2013 1:36 PM, Tom wrote:
Yes, sounds like you have your system figured out and it works. On the
exact same receipt paper thing that the Canadian Tire guy's machine
tested had the comment on each test result paper " Avg life in area : 46
MO. So that isn't very long and my last batteries (same style) lasted 8
years. After asking the group this question years ago I have put my
batteries on a better program and care for them better.

My charger makes that "chunk" noise you mentioned when I plug it in.

The Chap at Canadian Tire just couldn't tell me anymore, he didn't have
the knowledge, very nice guy, very smart (and handsome) but didn't have
the knowledge of deep cycle marine batteries and their proper
maintenance. Which is probably good idea, however I know this group has
the knowledge, lots of nice guys, (very handsome also) so I like to hear
your opinions. The cheap ones are good also.

Thanks and enjoy the day

I'm no expert with batteries and different types may vary a bit, I can't
say for sure. I worked for a railroad here in the US with the signal
gang and they used batteries on all the signals so they worked in power
failures. Just like much of the equipment on the railroad, they had
batteries in service for many, many years. I believe I was told they
would be expected to last some 20 years. They looked like car
batteries, not anything special like the huge ones they use at the phone
company. The point is that they used a trickle charge.

So I don't know that you must have a super special top charge detecting
charger to properly maintain batteries. But then there may be
differences in batteries. These were some 40 years ago and I believe
this was before they started adding small amounts of cadmium or similar
things to reduce the need for adding water, etc. Maybe trickle charging
is no longer recommended. But back then that was what the battery
makers wanted you to do to prevent damage, trickle charge.

Have you thought of contacting the company directly rather than through
the stores? I bet their web site has some good info on this.

Rick

On Fri, 10 May 2013 09:26:14 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on.

I might offer a clue. I have a Statpower/Xantrex 10A float charger
running my battery pile. It worked perfectly for about 5 years. Then,
I accidentally reversed the polarity on a battery. It still charges,
but the end of charge light no longer comes on with any battery that I
try. I'll tear it apart and see what I blew up when I have time and
the bench is clean.

You might want to take a known good battery of similar capacity and
try charging it to see if the light comes on. If not, it's charger
repair time.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

El 10-05-13 20:30, Tom escribió:

Hello Tom,

Hi Wim
THanks for the response

Yes, great, I will make the measurement on the battery after one hour
of charging (while charging it) at 10amps to see if it measures
greater than 14.8 volts. That may answer my concern.

If it remains under the 14.8v mark should I just keep it charging?

Unless you always need a fully charged battery always, I would not
leave it on the charger, as even at 14.8V there will be some gassing.
The 14.8V is an average value. The exact value for long time charge
maintenance is temperature dependent (high temperature needs lower
voltage, and may vary a bit per battery type). Some batteries I had
stated 14.4V at room temperature.

You may contact the manufacturer regarding the optimum maintenance
charge voltage.

Using a low maximum charge voltage (for example 14.2V) results in
longer time to reach 100%, or you don't reach 100% state of charge at
all.


My
charger is the automatic style that shuts off when it knows the
battery is fully charged. It has the meter on the front and always
starts off near the red then goes through the yellow part of the meter
then when in the green part of the meter it shuts off and the green
light comes on. If left like this the charger will cycle back on after
a while for very short time then off then on, etc etc, does that mean
it is losing its charge just sitting there? Is that ok or the sign of
a dead or dying battery? Recently it just doesn't shut off and stays
charging. I will measure its voltage at this stage.

I will also measure to see if it is holding the voltage after a few
days of nothing. I have a digital volt meter and can measure that easily.

Thanks

Tom

http://www.energymatters.com.au/rene...-discharge.php
shows state of charge versus open circuit voltage for various lead
batteries.

You may know that if you don't use them, store your batteries at low
temperature (reduces self-discharge, high humidity is fine) and check
the open circuit voltage every few months. That gives you an idea of
how fast they self-dicharge. For Batteries I don't use frequently I
recharge them when state of charge will drop below 50..60% (when they
drop below 12.3V I recharge them).

--
Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl
Please remove abc first in case of PM








"Wimpie" wrote in message
abel.net...
El 10-05-13 15:26, Tom escribió:
Hi again

Sorry, I know I asked this question a couple years ago or a
similiar one.

I am stumbled again and I don't want to ruin my batteries so I thought
I would ask the pros again.

I have two Marine deep cycle 750 A Nautaulis Canadian Tire Batteries.
225min/115 ah model number is 10-3199-0. These are the bit bigger
batteries about 40 lbs.

I also have the 10am/2am Automatic Canadian Tire 11-1567-0 battery
charger.

I have had these batteries in my garage all winter and about once
every month or 50 days I would bring them up to full charge. Takes
about 25 or 30 hours at 10 amp charging until that GREEN light comes
on and automatically shutting off.

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on. They are just
sitting there bubbling away, I actually had to put about a litre or
two into each of Reverse Osmosis water in to them because I could see
they were low. But the green light will not come on and they keep
charging. About 3 days now.

I took both batteries down to Canadian Tire and the chap used a little
hand tool electronic device that pumped me out a receipt thing
(EXP800) and this battery test told me that the batteries are GOOD.
Voltage is 12.63 for one and the other was 12.68 for the other. They
measured 922 CCA and 684 CCA (both rated for 750A) so he said they are
good. Temp was 19C


I asked him why the green light doesn't come on and the charging stop
but he said because the batteries are fully charged and good that the
charger must be good. And it is good because I used it on another deep
cycle battery I have and the green light came on and it stopped when
fullly charged.

I see the needle is close to the green on the meter but just not
moving over and continues charging at 10 amps with the bigger
batteries in question.

Batteries are almost 4 years old.

Any ideas or comments? Should I stop the charging? or continue until
that green light comes on like it used to? I would like to get a few
more years from these batteries . All coments are appreciated, cheap
or otherwise, I appreciate your expertise very much. Sorry the
question is OFF Topic, but I know you folks have the answer better
than the boating groups. thnx

Best regards and thanks

73s


Hello Tom,

Can you measure the voltage when the charger is charging the
batteries (after charging your full batteries for an hour or more)?
When it reads 14.8V, your charger is only generating gas and you
are reducing the service life of the battery (and you need to add
demi water).

You may also measure the battery open load voltage after leaving it
some days without any load (no charger connected). When it reads the
values you mentioned (12.68V), there is no leakage in one of the
cells and the battery is fully charged.

I have no idea about the charge modes of your charger, maybe some
voltage or current setting changed over time. For example when the
charging voltage drifts up during aging, the charge current remains
relatively high so that the charger thinks it still needs charge.
Some chargers have a current measurement. Once the current drops
below a certain value, the charger changes to maintenance charge
(that means it reduces the charge voltage to avoid/reduce gassing).


--
Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl
Please remove abc first in case of PM

El 11-05-13 12:47, Wimpie escribió:
El 10-05-13 20:30, Tom escribió:

Hello Tom,

Hi Wim
THanks for the response

Yes, great, I will make the measurement on the battery after one hour
of charging (while charging it) at 10amps to see if it measures
greater than 14.8 volts. That may answer my concern.

If it remains under the 14.8v mark should I just keep it charging?

Unless you always need a fully charged battery always, I would not
leave it on the charger, as even at 14.8V there will be some gassing.
The 14.8V is an average value. The exact value for long time charge
maintenance is temperature dependent (high temperature needs lower
voltage, and may vary a bit per battery type). Some batteries I had
stated 14.4V at room temperature.

You may contact the manufacturer regarding the optimum maintenance
charge voltage.

Using a low maximum charge voltage (for example 14.2V) results in
longer time to reach 100%, or you don't reach 100% state of charge at
all.


My
charger is the automatic style that shuts off when it knows the
battery is fully charged. It has the meter on the front and always
starts off near the red then goes through the yellow part of the meter
then when in the green part of the meter it shuts off and the green
light comes on. If left like this the charger will cycle back on after
a while for very short time then off then on, etc etc, does that mean
it is losing its charge just sitting there? Is that ok or the sign of
a dead or dying battery? Recently it just doesn't shut off and stays
charging. I will measure its voltage at this stage.

I will also measure to see if it is holding the voltage after a few
days of nothing. I have a digital volt meter and can measure that
easily.

Thanks

Tom

http://www.energymatters.com.au/rene...-discharge.php

shows state of charge versus open circuit voltage for various lead
batteries.

You may know that if you don't use them, store your batteries at low
temperature (reduces self-discharge, high humidity is fine) and check
the open circuit voltage every few months. That gives you an idea of
how fast they self-dicharge. For Batteries I don't use frequently I
recharge them when state of charge will drop below 50..60% (when they
drop below 12.3V I recharge them).



Hello Tom,

Some charge voltage numbers that I used in the past for standby
charger design (I don't remember the source). This means the battery
is on the charger every day, year after year.
2.26 to 2.31/cell at 20 degr. C, Correct with -2mV/K battery
temperature.

for a 12V battery: 13.56V to 13.86V

I do remember that some batteries didn't reach 100% charge, but for
many standby use applications, service life is more important then
100% state of charge.

For overnight charging (if you want a 100% charged battery for sure in
short time):
2.43 to 2.53/cell at 20 degr. C

for a 12V battery: 14.58V to 15.18V
When you apply such a voltage to the battery, the battery will bubble
(as you noticed) and the battery will lose water and service life.



--
Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl
Please remove abc first in case of PM

My God! A Ham waiting till his bench is clean! Hah!

Irv VE6BP

"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 May 2013 09:26:14 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

My problem is now that the green light isn't coming on.

I might offer a clue. I have a Statpower/Xantrex 10A float charger
running my battery pile. It worked perfectly for about 5 years. Then,
I accidentally reversed the polarity on a battery. It still charges,
but the end of charge light no longer comes on with any battery that I
try. I'll tear it apart and see what I blew up when I have time and
the bench is clean.

You might want to take a known good battery of similar capacity and
try charging it to see if the light comes on. If not, it's charger
repair time.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558