On antennae that are several half-wavelengths long (beverage, Rhombic, etc)
what does the radiative wavefront look like when close to the antennae, even
though it is presented in the literature as a plane wave further out?

The reason that I ask is the on such longwires, there are parts of the
wire which will be radiating positively, and parts negatively, thereby
suggesting that the outgoing wave, spherical though it might be, has
a +/- modualtion were you to travrse its circumference?

gareth wrote:
On antennae that are several half-wavelengths long (beverage, Rhombic, etc)
what does the radiative wavefront look like when close to the antennae, even
though it is presented in the literature as a plane wave further out?

Run just about any version of NEC and look at the near field data
and find out.

The reason that I ask is the on such longwires, there are parts of the
wire which will be radiating positively, and parts negatively, thereby
suggesting that the outgoing wave, spherical though it might be, has
a +/- modualtion were you to travrse its circumference?

Are you attempting to say the pattern has lobes in as many words as
possible?

Shape of the wavefront tells you little about the workings of an
antenna as an antenna as it depends on things like the emitter area and
distance from the emitter.

Example:

Sunlight from the Sun has a spherical wavefront, but at the Earth's
distance of 150,000,000 kilometers you are hard pressed to measure the
difference from planar.


--
Jim Pennino

On 14/10/14 22:05, wrote:
gareth wrote:
On antennae that are several half-wavelengths long (beverage, Rhombic, etc)
what does the radiative wavefront look like when close to the antennae, even
though it is presented in the literature as a plane wave further out?

Run just about any version of NEC and look at the near field data
and find out.

The reason that I ask is the on such longwires, there are parts of the
wire which will be radiating positively, and parts negatively, thereby
suggesting that the outgoing wave, spherical though it might be, has
a +/- modualtion were you to travrse its circumference?

Are you attempting to say the pattern has lobes in as many words as
possible?


If you follow his 'theory' through, try applying it to light (which
follows the same laws of physics).

Basically, he is confused.

"Brian Reay" wrote in message
...


If you follow his 'theory' through, try applying it to light (which
follows the same laws of physics).

Basically, he is confused.

Once again, Brian,the origination of abuse comes from you.

On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 4:18:22 AM UTC-5, gareth wrote:
"Brian Reay" wrote in message

...





If you follow his 'theory' through, try applying it to light (which

follows the same laws of physics).



Basically, he is confused.



Once again, Brian,the origination of abuse comes from you.

Who cares.. This is not some silly abuse encounter group.. :/
Did you do what was suggested and run it through a program?
That will totally answer your question and you can see it visually.
You can download this program, and there are already beverage ant
files ready to go. Even a caveman could do it. It's free, and
good nuff for gov work. And it will handle a lot of segments for
the more complex antennas. The beverages are under the "receive"
antenna folder..

http://hamsoft.ca/pages/mmana-gal.php

wrote in message
...

This is not some silly abuse encounter group..

No? ...

Did you do what was suggested and run it through a program?
Even a caveman could do it.

.... and now, yes?

On 15/10/14 10:33, wrote:
On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 4:18:22 AM UTC-5, gareth wrote:
"Brian Reay" wrote in message

...





If you follow his 'theory' through, try applying it to light (which

follows the same laws of physics).



Basically, he is confused.



Once again, Brian,the origination of abuse comes from you.

Who cares.. This is not some silly abuse encounter group.. :/

You need to appreciate that Gareth considers anyone who corrects him as
being abusive.


Having seen him in action many, many times, I can assure you this is so
and point you are countless examples in the uk.r.a and other newsgroup
archives. He invariably uses a similar technique and ends up using the
same abusive terms (eg 'Silly Boy').

He has been doing this for well over a decade, he was using the same
techniques before I started using uk.r.a in around 2000.


It is really best not to respond to him directly, you will notice I
never do. If you ignore him, he eventually 'blows his top' and goes off
to sulk.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 21:34:52 +0100, "gareth"
wrote:

On antennae that are several half-wavelengths long (beverage, Rhombic, etc)
what does the radiative wavefront look like when close to the antennae, even
though it is presented in the literature as a plane wave further out?

I've never bothered to grind out this calculation, so you've gotten my
attention.

If you find the assumptions insufficiently precise, perhaps some back
of the envelope math might be useful. If you have a point source
radiator, spewing RF at a wavelength = x, where the wavefront peaks
are x distance apart, how large a radius in the form n * x would you
need to have before the wavefronts are essentially a straight line? In
other words, how many wavelengths would you need to be away from the
RF source before the wavefront is essentially a straight line?

Obviously, the wavefront will never be completely straight, but I
would guess(tm) that the wire diameter of a typical 0.5 wave wire
dipole receive antenna should be sufficiently small to be considered
straight. Unfortunately, that dimension makes the calculation
frequency dependent, so I'll just assume 10 MHz and #14 AWG antenna to
make the math easier.
0.5 wave at 10 MHz = 15 meters
Dia of #14 AWG wire is about 1.63 mm.
The calcs are a bit too messy to show in ASCII, so I scanned my
scribbling:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/wavefront.jpg
At 10 MHz and a distance of 14.9 km (9.3 miles) the wavefront has
straightened out sufficiently so that the arc is no wider than the
width of a #14 AWG antenna wire. You would be hard pressed to keep
your receive antenna straight within the diameter of a #14 AWG wire,
so this degree of accuracy is massive overkill.

The reason that I ask is the on such longwires, there are parts of the
wire which will be radiating positively, and parts negatively, thereby
suggesting that the outgoing wave, spherical though it might be, has
a +/- modualtion were you to travrse its circumference?

Are you familiar with the term "word salad"? I'm sure you're trying
to convey a question, but it's difficult to find it under all the
misplaced and misused technical terms. A Beverage, Rhombic, etc is
not the same as a longwire. Antennas radiate AC and therefore do not
have the + and - polarity of a DC power source. The radiation pattern
from a long wire is not spherical (isotropic). Nothing in the antenna
affects the modulation. Traversing a circumference results in the
diameter. Kindly spend some time looking up the definitions of the
terms you use so that I don't have to decode your intentions.

Back to hauling firewood up the hill...

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 10/14/2014 7:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Back to hauling firewood up the hill...

You are doing it wrong. You will find it much easier to haul the
firewood down the hill.

--

Rick

On Wed, 15 Oct 2014 18:25:14 -0400, rickman wrote:

On 10/14/2014 7:32 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Back to hauling firewood up the hill...

You are doing it wrong. You will find it much easier to haul the
firewood down the hill.

My cardiologist demands that I get more exercise. Schlepping firewood
up about 50 step is quite good a producing the desired effect. That
which doesn't kill me makes me stronger. I could easily install a
cable lift, bucket hoist, or conveyor belt to move the firewood up the
hill with less exertion. However, I won't do that. Other than
occasional bicycling and fast walks, firewood schlepping is my major
form of exercise.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558