On Mon, 1 Jun 2015 10:58:48 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

Hi Gents

Sorry for offtopic question in your forum, but you folks know more about
marine batteries than any of the boating newsgroups, for my purpose anyway.

I have a half dozen marine deep cycle batteries. I get about 8 years
usefullness from them when I store them properly, I slow charge them once
per month while in my garage for winter storage and I try and never leave
them sitting without being charge. I try to never drain them completely, I
keep them filled with RO water and don't over boil them. Etc etc etc.

My question is I am coming up on the 8th year and might have neglected this
winter's long storage time. I have two that are my concern. Two Nautalis 12v
Deep Cycle, they are the bigger ones. One only holds the 12v charge for
about an hour. Battery charger "intelligent automatic charger" Will charge
them both, and shut off automatically when fully charged, then a week later
one is still 12v, the other is 10v. I needed to fill about 15% or 20% of
the fluid with RO water.

My question is about de-sulfating. I bought the one for $20.00 bucks that
connects and blinks the red light while it is desulfating with an electronic
pulse (reverse) and while I did this for about 2 months now on the
batteries, one shows very very good response but one still only holds the
12v charge for a week then goes down to 10v.

What I want to try is replacing the sulfuric acid. I think that could super
charge the lead acid reaction. The auto stores in Ontario no longer sell the
replacement battery acid (sulfuric acid) but just over the border in NY
state they all do. Very cheap. So I want to know what you folks think about
doing a 2 month de-sulfation then replacing the very grey and thick old acid
with some very clear and new sulfuric acid.

Replacement batteries would run me about $300.00. The Sulfuric Acid is about
$12.00 per gallon.

The folks at the Auto Supply Stores say it is good idea to do, but some say
not good idea. I am happy to hear you folks opinion of the matter. Feel free
to fling the mud. Just give me lots of advice.

I ended up having to replace the entire Fish Finder Extension for
Transducer, took about 2 days. I didn't end up splicing like I thought,
however when I removed all the panels to replace the old transducer cables
(there were 2 old ones in there) one was simply a regular hunk of coax for
mobile ham radio. With splices, with electrical tape. So for years I have
been using the old fish finder (Eagle Supra) 170mhz with a 25 foot piece of
radio coax spliced into the old transducer. O well.

But thank you folks for any advice on the sulfuric acid replacing in deep
cycle marine batteries. I live in Ontario so we store these batteries for 6
or 7 months per year.


That's how our grandpas did it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qA-pqBffWg


w.

2x what Jim Higgins said!

I worked for a Automotive Salvage Yard and at one time the owner of the junk yard allowed the employees to keep all the used batteries that did not have a full charge or that had a hole in them.
I myself and my friend would bring these batteries home - in the trunk of a Lincoln Continental and stack them on pallets until we got enough to make a trip to the scrap yard, where they would pay $1.50 each for the used batteries.

I had at times patched some of the batteries - with everything from Bondo - not a good idea, to JB Weld, to Blue Goo - Blue or Red Permatex.

I had a sewage problem at my QTH - home septic not city and I took the tops off of several batteries and poured the acid inside of the commode and when I was done, the porcelain shined like new. It did a good job of cleaning out the pipes.

We once needed a battery, short term for a demolition derby car and didn't want to use one of our good ones, so we found a car battery with a dead cell and we took a 3 lbs dead blow hammer and we beat on the bottom of the battery and eventually it broke up the sludge on the bottom and broke the short and held a charge.

Marine Battery - 8 years old, PLLLEEEESSSSE give me a break.
Quit being so cheap and go buy a new battery.
As a matter of fact, if the two batteries are ganged in parallel, you need to buy two new batteries, else the weaker of the two will rob power from the newer battery and the old battery will kill the new battery!

Only a moron would post a battery question in an antenna forum.

My guess is that the boating people gave you the same answer, you just didn't want to listen.

If you have no Denero - then you aren't going to be going boating this year with two dead batteries.

The folks that gave the advice that the batteries does not like to be stationary is dead on.
Maybe you could build a battery tray in the trunk of your vehicle and haul them around while connected to a battery isolator all winter, and you could connect something to them, maybe a car stereo or something, that way the batteries would cycle each time you drove the vehicle and it would keep them from going dead prematurely.

That is what I like about people.
When the sun shines, they don't think about their batteries, then when winter comes, they drag their battery out of their boat and they put it on a float charger and they think that they can perpetuate it by charging it once in a while. Eventually they forget about the battery for a month or two, or they place it directly on the cement floor and it goes dead and then in the spring they run out to their shed or their basement and go to grab their battery from last year - and it is dead!
Then they cry, moan and complain until they pony up the bucks to go buy new ones!

You would be better off to buy a vehicle that has a battery tray large enough to hold those batteries and rotate them on a schedule in your vehicle and use them once every 3 months for a month to keep them charged then you would just setting them on your work bench on a charger.

Thanks folks for more advice.

Great advice and knowledge. Thanks much.

Yes, I read your advice and decided not to change the acid. I bought the new
battery for 150.00 and they gave me 20 dollars for the old core.
If I didn't have the old core they would have charged me additional 20.

Now they have at Canadian Tire the new Nautalis Advanced battery for
$200.00 and it is same cranking amps and RC and has new technology using a
sock technolgy that eliminates the sulfating.

The secret is not to let the battery discharge for any lengths of time (eg
one month). Getting 6 or 7 or 8 years out of the battery is excellent.

Thanks for all the tips and advice, I will care for my batteries much more
focused now.

So the chap at the C.T. store tells me this new battery will last decades
and wont de-sulfate (which is the reason most deep cycle batteries die).


http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/gr...l#.VXl-mlJ_9Cg



Thanks again gents,
very much appreciate your words.

73s









"Channel Jumper" wrote in message
...

2x what Jim Higgins said!

I worked for a Automotive Salvage Yard and at one time the owner of the
junk yard allowed the employees to keep all the used batteries that did
not have a full charge or that had a hole in them.
I myself and my friend would bring these batteries home - in the trunk
of a Lincoln Continental and stack them on pallets until we got enough
to make a trip to the scrap yard, where they would pay $1.50 each for
the used batteries.

I had at times patched some of the batteries - with everything from
Bondo - not a good idea, to JB Weld, to Blue Goo - Blue or Red
Permatex.

I had a sewage problem at my QTH - home septic not city and I took the
tops off of several batteries and poured the acid inside of the commode
and when I was done, the porcelain shined like new. It did a good job
of cleaning out the pipes.

We once needed a battery, short term for a demolition derby car and
didn't want to use one of our good ones, so we found a car battery with
a dead cell and we took a 3 lbs dead blow hammer and we beat on the
bottom of the battery and eventually it broke up the sludge on the
bottom and broke the short and held a charge.

Marine Battery - 8 years old, PLLLEEEESSSSE give me a break.
Quit being so cheap and go buy a new battery.
As a matter of fact, if the two batteries are ganged in parallel, you
need to buy two new batteries, else the weaker of the two will rob power
from the newer battery and the old battery will kill the new battery!

Only a moron would post a battery question in an antenna forum.

My guess is that the boating people gave you the same answer, you just
didn't want to listen.

If you have no Denero - then you aren't going to be going boating this
year with two dead batteries.

The folks that gave the advice that the batteries does not like to be
stationary is dead on.
Maybe you could build a battery tray in the trunk of your vehicle and
haul them around while connected to a battery isolator all winter, and
you could connect something to them, maybe a car stereo or something,
that way the batteries would cycle each time you drove the vehicle and
it would keep them from going dead prematurely.

That is what I like about people.
When the sun shines, they don't think about their batteries, then when
winter comes, they drag their battery out of their boat and they put it
on a float charger and they think that they can perpetuate it by
charging it once in a while. Eventually they forget about the battery
for a month or two, or they place it directly on the cement floor and it
goes dead and then in the spring they run out to their shed or their
basement and go to grab their battery from last year - and it is dead!
Then they cry, moan and complain until they pony up the bucks to go buy
new ones!

You would be better off to buy a vehicle that has a battery tray large
enough to hold those batteries and rotate them on a schedule in your
vehicle and use them once every 3 months for a month to keep them
charged then you would just setting them on your work bench on a
charger.




--
Channel Jumper

On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 08:31:19 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

So the chap at the C.T. store tells me this new battery will last decades
and wont de-sulfate (which is the reason most deep cycle batteries die).
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/gr...l#.VXl-mlJ_9Cg

I think you mean "won't sulfate".

Hint. Find out how much the battery weighs. Presumably both the old
and this battery are both the same size. If you find that one is
substantially lighter, you're getting ripped off for that much in
lead. In general, the more lead, the better the battery.

With all due respect, I don't think you read or understood much of
what people have advised you to do. You also failed to disclose how
you are using this battery, which prevents selecting an appropriate
battery. I think you should reconsider your purchase of what looks
like a marine/RV engine starting motor and possibly ask your well
informed salesman how a magic sock is suppose to prevent battery
damage. I'll try again, although it's probably futile.

Sulfation is a normal part of the charge/discharge cycle of a battery.
When a battery is discharged, it produces lead sulfate on the plates:
http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html
"This chemical reaction also begins to coat both positive
and negative plates with a substance called lead sulfate
also known as sulfation (shown as a yellow build-up on plates).
This build-up of lead sulfate is normal during a discharge cycle.
As the battery continues to discharge, lead sulfate coats more
and more of the plates and battery voltage begins to decrease
from fully charged state of 12.6-volts..."
Got it? Lead sulfate production is a normal part of battery
operation.

Where you get into trouble is when the lead sulfate crystalizes.
Amorphous lead sulfate is rather soft and is easily dissolved back
into solution during recharge. Crystaline lead sulfate is more like a
rock and just sits there. As more and more of the plates are coated
with the crystaline form of lead sulfate, less and less lead plate
surface area is exposed, causing a reduction in battery capacity. In
other words, you're not trying to prevent suflation. You're trying to
prevent lead sulfate crystalization. I would be interested in how a
sock can do that.

In my never humble opinion, the best way to prevent crystalization is
to not leave the battery in a discharged condition for very long. Deep
discharge is also a problem.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Yes, thanks for the correction on the wont sulfate.
And thanks for all the advice.
But that is what the chap claimed, the sulfating is what is killing these
deep cycles very early. And I will follow your advice very much, I will
never allow
these batteries to fully discharge or to not be topped up monthly. I will
top them up monthly. I always have paid close attention to my batteries when
in storage for winter season, now I will pay closer attention.

Interesting the chap there at C.T. told me that the new battery will not
desulfate.

Interesting enough also that when I put the two batteries side by side and
the new advanced ultra model was actually the same weight yet smaller in
size.

Just like any other industry, especially marine, they will not make me a
battery to last a lifetime, they need me to replace my batteries regularly.
Their accounting and marketing departments bank on it. Same as the smoke
detectors in the home, our firedepartment is going door to door in my
neighborhood inspecting and if you do not have they will sell you for $45.00
one for each floor (also a carbon monoxide detector) for same price, yet if
you check ebay they are only $8.00 . But I am sure smoke detectors and CO2
detectors can last longer than 5 years and function properly, but if they
lasted a lifetime or the lifetime of the house, the smoke/CO2 detector
businesses would hurt. So industry leaders bribe political leaders and so
goes a nanny state.

O well,,

Thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated

73s







"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 11 Jun 2015 08:31:19 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

So the chap at the C.T. store tells me this new battery will last decades
and wont de-sulfate (which is the reason most deep cycle batteries die).
http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/gr...l#.VXl-mlJ_9Cg

I think you mean "won't sulfate".

Hint. Find out how much the battery weighs. Presumably both the old
and this battery are both the same size. If you find that one is
substantially lighter, you're getting ripped off for that much in
lead. In general, the more lead, the better the battery.

With all due respect, I don't think you read or understood much of
what people have advised you to do. You also failed to disclose how
you are using this battery, which prevents selecting an appropriate
battery. I think you should reconsider your purchase of what looks
like a marine/RV engine starting motor and possibly ask your well
informed salesman how a magic sock is suppose to prevent battery
damage. I'll try again, although it's probably futile.

Sulfation is a normal part of the charge/discharge cycle of a battery.
When a battery is discharged, it produces lead sulfate on the plates:
http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html
"This chemical reaction also begins to coat both positive
and negative plates with a substance called lead sulfate
also known as sulfation (shown as a yellow build-up on plates).
This build-up of lead sulfate is normal during a discharge cycle.
As the battery continues to discharge, lead sulfate coats more
and more of the plates and battery voltage begins to decrease
from fully charged state of 12.6-volts..."
Got it? Lead sulfate production is a normal part of battery
operation.

Where you get into trouble is when the lead sulfate crystalizes.
Amorphous lead sulfate is rather soft and is easily dissolved back
into solution during recharge. Crystaline lead sulfate is more like a
rock and just sits there. As more and more of the plates are coated
with the crystaline form of lead sulfate, less and less lead plate
surface area is exposed, causing a reduction in battery capacity. In
other words, you're not trying to prevent suflation. You're trying to
prevent lead sulfate crystalization. I would be interested in how a
sock can do that.

In my never humble opinion, the best way to prevent crystalization is
to not leave the battery in a discharged condition for very long. Deep
discharge is also a problem.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 6/12/2015 8:19 AM, Tom wrote:
Yes, thanks for the correction on the wont sulfate.
And thanks for all the advice.
But that is what the chap claimed, the sulfating is what is killing
these deep cycles very early. And I will follow your advice very much, I
will never allow
these batteries to fully discharge or to not be topped up monthly. I
will top them up monthly. I always have paid close attention to my
batteries when in storage for winter season, now I will pay closer
attention.

Interesting the chap there at C.T. told me that the new battery will not
desulfate.

Interesting enough also that when I put the two batteries side by side
and the new advanced ultra model was actually the same weight yet
smaller in size.

Just like any other industry, especially marine, they will not make me a
battery to last a lifetime, they need me to replace my batteries
regularly. Their accounting and marketing departments bank on it. Same
as the smoke detectors in the home, our firedepartment is going door to
door in my neighborhood inspecting and if you do not have they will sell
you for $45.00 one for each floor (also a carbon monoxide detector) for
same price, yet if you check ebay they are only $8.00 . But I am sure
smoke detectors and CO2 detectors can last longer than 5 years and
function properly, but if they lasted a lifetime or the lifetime of the
house, the smoke/CO2 detector businesses would hurt. So industry leaders
bribe political leaders and so goes a nanny state.

O well,,

Thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated

73s



No, they aren't just trying to sell you things. Lead-acid batteries,
like all rechargeable batteries, do deteriorate over time - scientists
have never found a way to prevent it. I usually figure 5 years on car
and boat batteries; I don't want to be caught with a dead battery.

As for the smoke detectors - the $8.00 units you find on ebay are crap.
They are unreliable and may not work when required. Also, replacing
every 5 years isn't a bad idea; the longest any fire detector lasts is
about 10 years, mainly due to dust buildup in the sensor cavity.
Commercial grade detectors monitor dust buildup and can notify the
installer when the sensor degrades enough to be replaced; in a typical
installation this is around 7-8 years. My question here is - how much
are your family's lives worth?

P.S. Please don't top post. Thanks.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

Rick


On 6/12/2015 8:19 AM, Tom wrote:
Yes, thanks for the correction on the wont sulfate.
And thanks for all the advice.
But that is what the chap claimed, the sulfating is what is killing
these deep cycles very early. And I will follow your advice very much, I
will never allow
these batteries to fully discharge or to not be topped up monthly. I
will top them up monthly. I always have paid close attention to my
batteries when in storage for winter season, now I will pay closer
attention.

Interesting the chap there at C.T. told me that the new battery will not
desulfate.

Interesting enough also that when I put the two batteries side by side
and the new advanced ultra model was actually the same weight yet
smaller in size.

Just like any other industry, especially marine, they will not make me a
battery to last a lifetime, they need me to replace my batteries
regularly. Their accounting and marketing departments bank on it. Same
as the smoke detectors in the home, our firedepartment is going door to
door in my neighborhood inspecting and if you do not have they will sell
you for $45.00 one for each floor (also a carbon monoxide detector) for
same price, yet if you check ebay they are only $8.00 . But I am sure
smoke detectors and CO2 detectors can last longer than 5 years and
function properly, but if they lasted a lifetime or the lifetime of the
house, the smoke/CO2 detector businesses would hurt. So industry leaders
bribe political leaders and so goes a nanny state.

O well,,

Thanks a lot for all the advice, much appreciated

73s

--

Rick

rickman wrote:
So what makes you think you need to replace a smoke detector every 5
years? I had units in my house that lasted over 20 years.

Likely a dusty environment.

On the other hand, I have not seen a CO2 detector for near the price of
a smoke detector. Are they really so inexpensive?

You mean CO detector.

My detector rolled over yesterday; full of dust and crap.

In Lowes I found battery powered, stand alone CO and smoke detectors
starting out at about $20, battery powered, stand alone combo CO/smoke
detectors starting at about $50.

High end, network enabled models for a bit more, hardwired dumb models
a bit less.


--
Jim Pennino