Hi Jeff

Can you comment on the fact that these Enphase converters need 240ac volts
(grid connection) to run? This means that if ever the power supplier
locally ever shuts down for more than a long period of time that these
Enphase units become useless. Around my neck of the woods we are getting
more and more power outages lasting longer and longer. These inverters
require being connected to the grid to function.

I understand the safety requirement and it needing to do this to be
certified but it really limits the home owner (or cottage owner in my case).

Have you ever worked on a system that was more practical? That qualified for
the grid program but was useful when detached from the grid? Seems to me if
ever the power company decides to cancel the program you may be stuck with
40 inverters that are useless and are 200 dollars each.

Any comments are thankful,

Regards

Tom





"Tom" wrote in message
...
Thank you sir for your expertise again.

Very much appreciated.

73s





"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 07:15:26 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

That is it in a nutshell. I am waiting for approval for the program, If
approved then I can go forward to begin purchasing the system and start
building it.

One more potential problem. Enphase has an online monitoring system
at:
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public_systems
I suggest that you eventually sign up as a system owner. You can
download the data and create your own graphs such as:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/solar/380732/total-energy-21040613-20150213.jpg

Incidentally, you can query the Envoy controller directly either via a
web interface or using a graphing program (MRTG):
http://blog.tinle.org/?p=111
http://pvoutput.org
http://pvoutput.org/outputs.jsp
None of the system owners I deal with want me to do this, so I haven't
bothered to try it.

Now that I'm thinking about it, you might run into another problem.
The People's Republic of Santa Cruz (county) uses the NFPA NEC code
which now demands 2ft of clearance between the roof peak and the solar
panels. This clear area is for ventilating the roof should the house
catch fire. I have some issues with this requirement because it
significantly reduces the available roof area for panels for no
benefit because the other side of a typical hip roof is usually clear
of solar panels. You might want to check whether this is a
requirement in your area. I have some docs on the topic if becomes a
problem.

Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 8/20/2015 3:14 PM, Tom wrote:
Hi Jeff

Can you comment on the fact that these Enphase converters need 240ac
volts (grid connection) to run? This means that if ever the power
supplier locally ever shuts down for more than a long period of time
that these Enphase units become useless. Around my neck of the woods we
are getting more and more power outages lasting longer and longer. These
inverters require being connected to the grid to function.

I understand the safety requirement and it needing to do this to be
certified but it really limits the home owner (or cottage owner in my
case).

Have you ever worked on a system that was more practical? That qualified
for the grid program but was useful when detached from the grid? Seems
to me if ever the power company decides to cancel the program you may be
stuck with 40 inverters that are useless and are 200 dollars each.

Any comments are thankful,

Regards

Tom

Tom,

We don't do PV installations, but I have worked with a couple of
companies who do. Most of these installations will not run unless they
can synchronize with the 60hz line voltage - that is, when power fails,
the PV system doesn't run. I know there are some out there which will
run off of batteries, but not being familiar with the systems
themselves, I can't recommend any.

One other caution. At least here on the East Coast, you need a permit
to install a PV system. In many jurisdictions the wiring must be done
by a licensed electrician, although some will allow you to do it. In
most cases, if you are going to do it, you will need to take a test on
the National Electric Code before you are allowed to proceed.

And finally, the installation must be inspected by building authorities.
Failure to do so can cause all kinds of problems.

In short, a PV installation is not a DIY project. It's very complex,
with numerous building and electric codes involved. And a bad
installation can be a serious fire and electric shock hazard.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Thanks for commenting Jerry

Yes, all you say is the same here. All elements of the codes must be
followed.

So you are saying it is possible to be able to use your solar panels when
the grid is off?

At my cottage the grid shuts off for long times.

Thanks





"Jerry Stuckle" wrote in message
...
On 8/20/2015 3:14 PM, Tom wrote:
Hi Jeff

Can you comment on the fact that these Enphase converters need 240ac
volts (grid connection) to run? This means that if ever the power
supplier locally ever shuts down for more than a long period of time
that these Enphase units become useless. Around my neck of the woods we
are getting more and more power outages lasting longer and longer. These
inverters require being connected to the grid to function.

I understand the safety requirement and it needing to do this to be
certified but it really limits the home owner (or cottage owner in my
case).

Have you ever worked on a system that was more practical? That qualified
for the grid program but was useful when detached from the grid? Seems
to me if ever the power company decides to cancel the program you may be
stuck with 40 inverters that are useless and are 200 dollars each.

Any comments are thankful,

Regards

Tom

Tom,

We don't do PV installations, but I have worked with a couple of
companies who do. Most of these installations will not run unless they
can synchronize with the 60hz line voltage - that is, when power fails,
the PV system doesn't run. I know there are some out there which will
run off of batteries, but not being familiar with the systems
themselves, I can't recommend any.

One other caution. At least here on the East Coast, you need a permit
to install a PV system. In many jurisdictions the wiring must be done
by a licensed electrician, although some will allow you to do it. In
most cases, if you are going to do it, you will need to take a test on
the National Electric Code before you are allowed to proceed.

And finally, the installation must be inspected by building authorities.
Failure to do so can cause all kinds of problems.

In short, a PV installation is not a DIY project. It's very complex,
with numerous building and electric codes involved. And a bad
installation can be a serious fire and electric shock hazard.


--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

Tom wrote:
Thanks for commenting Jerry

Yes, all you say is the same here. All elements of the codes must be
followed.

So you are saying it is possible to be able to use your solar panels when
the grid is off?

At my cottage the grid shuts off for long times.

Thanks

Yes, it is possible, but takes more equipment.

Most PV systems take the simple approach to the requirement that they
not feed into a grid that is off and potentially electrocute a
lineman by simply turning off your system.

More expensive systems include sensors and relays to isolate your
PV system and residence from the grid if the grid turns off.



--
Jim Pennino

Yes, but Enphase Microinverters shut off, SolarEdge inverters shut off, for
just that reason. This makes them certifiable. They are probably the better
ones for my application.

You mentioned it was possible with more equipment. Can you elaborate? I want
to primarily be on the program, but when my grid goes down for any serious
length of time what more equipment would you recommend me considering that
both meets the code, made in Ontario and is tried and true, suitable for the
program. I don't want knock offs or copies, or offshore stuff. Must be
certified and meet the code, etc etc, and not so complicated it needs NASA
Satelite Engineers to approve my drawings.


Thanks





wrote in message
...
Tom wrote:
Thanks for commenting Jerry

Yes, all you say is the same here. All elements of the codes must be
followed.

So you are saying it is possible to be able to use your solar panels when
the grid is off?

At my cottage the grid shuts off for long times.

Thanks

Yes, it is possible, but takes more equipment.

Most PV systems take the simple approach to the requirement that they
not feed into a grid that is off and potentially electrocute a
lineman by simply turning off your system.

More expensive systems include sensors and relays to isolate your
PV system and residence from the grid if the grid turns off.



--
Jim Pennino

Tom wrote:
Yes, but Enphase Microinverters shut off, SolarEdge inverters shut off, for
just that reason. This makes them certifiable. They are probably the better
ones for my application.

You mentioned it was possible with more equipment. Can you elaborate? I want
to primarily be on the program, but when my grid goes down for any serious
length of time what more equipment would you recommend me considering that
both meets the code, made in Ontario and is tried and true, suitable for the
program. I don't want knock offs or copies, or offshore stuff. Must be
certified and meet the code, etc etc, and not so complicated it needs NASA
Satelite Engineers to approve my drawings.


Thanks

I have nothing to do with solar systems and what I know is based on
the research I did to decide whether or not such a system made any
sort of sense in my situation.

I did not find any system that would maintain power in a grid outage
that did not include some sort of backup power, i.e. either a battery
storage system or an autostart generator.

All the systems I found were integrated systems in that I did not find
anything you could add to an existing simple PV system and convert it
to one that would maintain power in a grid outage.

All I can suggest is an extensive web search to see if there is anything
on the market that meets your needs.


--
Jim Pennino

In article ,
wrote:

I have nothing to do with solar systems and what I know is based on
the research I did to decide whether or not such a system made any
sort of sense in my situation.

I did not find any system that would maintain power in a grid outage
that did not include some sort of backup power, i.e. either a battery
storage system or an autostart generator.

I think that's difficult to do, unless you have already converted to a
pure-DC system and have devices which can tolerate brownouts.

Solar-panel systems have a somewhat funky power-delivery curve. If
you try to draw more power than they can deliver, their output voltage
drops like a rock. For some sorts of loads (incandescent) this may be
tolerable. For surge loads such as motors, it's bad... the motors can
stall, or bog down, and may burn out. Some classes of load (e.g. many
switching power supplies) will start drawing *more* current as the
voltage drops, in order to continue delivering the required amount of
power to their load... and the solar panel's output voltage drops
further, current load goes up, voltage drops more... THUNK.

So, driving inverters or other variable loads directly from a
solar-panel array, without at least *some* stored energy to handle
spikes in load or drops in supply (cloud-over-the-sun) is a tricky
problem to solve, and I believe it's very likely to result in a system
which simply isn't reliable. If you're going to spend a hefty chunk
of money for one as a back-stop against grid outages, that probably
isn't a satisfying result.

On 8/20/2015 5:40 PM, Tom wrote:
Yes, but Enphase Microinverters shut off, SolarEdge inverters shut off,
for just that reason. This makes them certifiable. They are probably the
better ones for my application.

You mentioned it was possible with more equipment. Can you elaborate? I
want to primarily be on the program, but when my grid goes down for any
serious length of time what more equipment would you recommend me
considering that both meets the code, made in Ontario and is tried and
true, suitable for the program. I don't want knock offs or copies, or
offshore stuff. Must be certified and meet the code, etc etc, and not so
complicated it needs NASA Satelite Engineers to approve my drawings.


Thanks

Tom,

Yes, there are systems which can operate independently from the grid.
Typically they operate like a zero time switchover UPS - your house
actually runs off batteries and/or rectified and filtered AC, through an
inverter which generates the 60hz. But if you're talking 200A service
at 230V, you're talking over 45KW maximum drain. An inverter which
generates sine waves with that much power (not to mention the batteries
required to support it) is quite expensive (and generating clean sine
waves isn't all that efficient). Sure, you don't need it all of the
time - but you need to be able to supply the peak draw.

As Jim hinted - you have to isolate the output of your inverter from the
power lines, even though they both feed the same equipment. Otherwise,
when you lose power, your inverter is going to try to supply power to
the whole neighborhood. Not only would that burn out your inverter, but
it could electrocute someone.

That's a big reason most backup systems use diesel generators. They are
much more cost effective and will run as long as they have fuel
available. Plus they generate pretty clean sine waves. Switchover is
on the order of a few seconds; if that's too long one or more UPS's for
critical systems can keep power up for that short of a time.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry, AI0K

==================

On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:14:46 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

Can you comment on the fact that these Enphase converters need 240ac volts
(grid connection) to run? This means that if ever the power supplier
locally ever shuts down for more than a long period of time that these
Enphase units become useless. Around my neck of the woods we are getting
more and more power outages lasting longer and longer. These inverters
require being connected to the grid to function.

Yep, been there. Almost everyone that has a grid tied solar system
wants to know what it will take to make it run when the power is down.
Home Power Magazine had a nice article on the topic in the current
issue (168):
http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/adding-battery-backup-your-pv-system-ac-coupling
The magic buzzword for Googling is "AC-Coupled Battery Backup PV
System" (or something like that). Note that there are both DC and AC
coupled approaches to the problem, each with their own advantages and
problems.

Note that Elon Musk wants to do much the same thing but not to backup
your solar PV system. He wants to store excess power in a battery
bank, and return it during times of peak loads to save money using
time of use billing.
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/teslas-batteries-will-power-home/

I understand the safety requirement and it needing to do this to be
certified but it really limits the home owner (or cottage owner in my case).

Yep. All of the stuff in the article is probably approved, but I
would be careful and check, especially with made in China hardware
purchased on eBay.

Have you ever worked on a system that was more practical?

More practical than what? I've done nothing with AC coupled backup
systems for grid tied PV systems, mostly because none of my customers
will tolerate the cost. It's often cheaper to just buy a big
generator and let it sit around until it's needed. Diesel seems to be
the favorite.

That qualified for
the grid program but was useful when detached from the grid? Seems to me if
ever the power company decides to cancel the program you may be stuck with
40 inverters that are useless and are 200 dollars each.

You're mixing up a bunch of programs. First, your power company is
unlikely to pull the plug except for non-payment. It might decide to
cancel subsidies or refuse to offer net metering payments, as happens
in many states. In California, if the power is lost for extended
periods, there is some fixed amount that the power companies are
required to refund the customer on their next bill. That too might be
terminated. At this time, power generation and distribution is mostly
a "best effort" exercise, with little in the way of guarantees
covering extended outages.

If you're dependent on a sole source of power, such as utility *OR*
PV, then you'll have the same problem with outages. My best
suggestions is to have more than one source of power. Utility and PV
are the most common. There's also wind and micro-hydro generation.
Batteries don't generate electricity so they're not considered an
alternative power source. Once you have your power source in place,
then you can think about storage options.

Any comments are thankful,

If you wanted to be off the grid, then kindly plan your system for off
grid use. That mostly eliminates grid tied systems and always
requires batteries or other forms of energy storage (maybe flywheel).
Instead of micro-inverters, you're back to the big charger/controller
boxes, and banks of batteries.

Batteries are always a problem. They require constant care. They
tend to die rather quickly. They're expensive. They're big, ugly,
and dangerous. They're far too easy to kill. Before dealing with
batteries, make sure you know what you're getting into.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Thanks gents

Great, thanks for all your thoughts.

I wanted to stay away from the battery bank thing, I have enough trouble
with keeping 4 or 5 deep cycles alive for more than 5 or 6 years. But I may
introduce them to a PV system.
But all my Deep Cycles are different sizes, so sure would like some of those
Tesla by Elon. I believe that person is developing a huge PV manufacturing
facility in Buffalo NY but I talked to SolarCity reps and they will not deal
with Canadian market.

My program is with Ontario Hydro and up north our local providers are shaky
and unreliable. In Ontario Canada the provincial govt is recently (last
decade or more) really screwed things up, they started a Gas Power Plant and
cancelled that after about a billion, they have had other programs that they
started and abruptly ended after loosing a few billion and now they are in a
50 year debt and trying to sell off to private (fire sale) and they are
offering this program to me for a 20 year contract. So I must install 40
panels on my roof and tie it all into the grid and they want 100% of it and
paying a pretty nice penny per KWh. But the initial investment by me is
substantial up front so if they pull out of the deal in one year then I have
a very big expensive inverters that are good for nothing. A lot of people in
Ontario Canada don't think that the local Ontary Hydro will be long for this
world, so we don't want to get stuck on this program and left hanging.

I can see them keeping me (and all home owners or cottage owners) as
providers because we aren't unionized and costing more to produce it than
selling it, I think they are trying to eliminate the nuclear (60% of our
power in Ontario) because it is costing too much debt. So their goal may be
to get all that can to provide it because I maintain the house structure and
panel system and no union or salary or coffee breaks. But they could cancel
that tomorrow leaving me a $30,000 system I can do nothing with.

I like what they are offering, it seems too good to be true.

I will take a chance, role the dice and jump in. For the program. Without
the program it isn't worth it at this time.

Thanks very much for all the food for thought, I will implement a small
charge controller and small battery bank system. I like your Diesel
Generator idea for if ever the power does go out, which it does. But it is
small to worry about. Thanks again for all the ideas.

For my primary reason for this system, I will buy the 40 panels and do you
folks have any reasons why you would select the Solaredge technology with
the new optimizers for efficiencies (about $3000.00) for their product, or
using Enphase microinverters (about $7000.00). Other than costs difference,
which would you folks prefer? Both become useless if the power grid goes
off, but both are looking pretty equal for efficiences and installation is
easy enough.

All the surfing and reading I see is everyone has installed the Solaredge
and it seems to have improved nicely, while the Enphase is the lastest and
not really had many years of use to compare, but they apparently to some are
the better device.

Do you folks have any comments on either of these devices?

Have good day, thanks







"Jeff Liebermann" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Aug 2015 15:14:46 -0400, "Tom" wrote:

Can you comment on the fact that these Enphase converters need 240ac volts
(grid connection) to run? This means that if ever the power supplier
locally ever shuts down for more than a long period of time that these
Enphase units become useless. Around my neck of the woods we are getting
more and more power outages lasting longer and longer. These inverters
require being connected to the grid to function.

Yep, been there. Almost everyone that has a grid tied solar system
wants to know what it will take to make it run when the power is down.
Home Power Magazine had a nice article on the topic in the current
issue (168):
http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/design-installation/adding-battery-backup-your-pv-system-ac-coupling
The magic buzzword for Googling is "AC-Coupled Battery Backup PV
System" (or something like that). Note that there are both DC and AC
coupled approaches to the problem, each with their own advantages and
problems.

Note that Elon Musk wants to do much the same thing but not to backup
your solar PV system. He wants to store excess power in a battery
bank, and return it during times of peak loads to save money using
time of use billing.
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/teslas-batteries-will-power-home/

I understand the safety requirement and it needing to do this to be
certified but it really limits the home owner (or cottage owner in my
case).

Yep. All of the stuff in the article is probably approved, but I
would be careful and check, especially with made in China hardware
purchased on eBay.

Have you ever worked on a system that was more practical?

More practical than what? I've done nothing with AC coupled backup
systems for grid tied PV systems, mostly because none of my customers
will tolerate the cost. It's often cheaper to just buy a big
generator and let it sit around until it's needed. Diesel seems to be
the favorite.

That qualified for
the grid program but was useful when detached from the grid? Seems to me
if
ever the power company decides to cancel the program you may be stuck with
40 inverters that are useless and are 200 dollars each.

You're mixing up a bunch of programs. First, your power company is
unlikely to pull the plug except for non-payment. It might decide to
cancel subsidies or refuse to offer net metering payments, as happens
in many states. In California, if the power is lost for extended
periods, there is some fixed amount that the power companies are
required to refund the customer on their next bill. That too might be
terminated. At this time, power generation and distribution is mostly
a "best effort" exercise, with little in the way of guarantees
covering extended outages.

If you're dependent on a sole source of power, such as utility *OR*
PV, then you'll have the same problem with outages. My best
suggestions is to have more than one source of power. Utility and PV
are the most common. There's also wind and micro-hydro generation.
Batteries don't generate electricity so they're not considered an
alternative power source. Once you have your power source in place,
then you can think about storage options.

Any comments are thankful,

If you wanted to be off the grid, then kindly plan your system for off
grid use. That mostly eliminates grid tied systems and always
requires batteries or other forms of energy storage (maybe flywheel).
Instead of micro-inverters, you're back to the big charger/controller
boxes, and banks of batteries.

Batteries are always a problem. They require constant care. They
tend to die rather quickly. They're expensive. They're big, ugly,
and dangerous. They're far too easy to kill. Before dealing with
batteries, make sure you know what you're getting into.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558