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#41
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On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:01:06 -0700, Roy Lewallen
wrote: The method you propose seems workable, except I didn't see any mention of heat leaving the box via thermal conduction along the wires. Depending on the box's insulating property and the wires, this could be a significant contributor to the total heat loss from the box. Therefore it's very important to either insure that this loss is negligible compared to the loss through the styrofoam, or else to manage it (most easily by using exactly the same wires and wire orientation during calibration and test). In my original post I suggested using the same container and the same cable to feed either the antenna or the dummy load. Thus the power escaping through the feedline is the same in both cases and thus, cancels out. My suggestion of using a cold liquid and measuring how long it takes until it gets warmer just helps to give a ballpark value of the thermal conductivity, which will help to set the appropriate power levels for the actual antenna/dymmy load tests, i.e. not too cold or too warm. Paul OH3LWR |
#42
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"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message ... So, when you tell me to "forget the igloo", you seem to have placed yourself in a position where you think you know how to evaluate antenna efficiency and that I dont. I dont think you are *that* smart. Jerry You win, I ain't so smart as I thought. :-) I thought that antenna is supposed to radiate RF in the direction and with pattern one desires. That's what I want to measure, how effective radiator it is, how much RF it produces at the point of interest. If you want to know how well it works as a heater, more power to you. I am not in a ****ing contest who is "smarter", I was trying to convey some practicality and what I do and what I am interested in. Over and out! Back to DR1 (www.computeradio.us) Yuri, K3BU I was under the impression that radiation efficency was pretty much a" no-brainer".If the antenna is built of quality materials with good workmanship the antenna would be an efficent radiator with little ohmic or dielectric losses. The exception to this of course would be antennas that use an earth ground. I just found I was losing at least 3 db to heating up the ground. Jimmie |
#43
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I was under the impression that radiation efficency was pretty much a" no-brainer".If the antenna is built of quality materials with good workmanship the antenna would be an efficent radiator with little ohmic or dielectric losses. The exception to this of course would be antennas that use an earth ground. I just found I was losing at least 3 db to heating up the ground. Jimmie Keep digging, you will find more lost dBs. Things get aggravated in loaded antennas when you start inserting coils, loading elements, folding them back, etc. Efficiency is roughly proportional to the area under the current distribution curve along the radiator. That can be affected by any of the shortening "miraculous" gizmos, like Vincent DLM antenna. It is not just heat loses in resistances. You can't have "perfectly" conducting piece of 1 ft copper tubing be as effcient as 130 ft full size radiator on 160m. Getting smarter, Eh ? :-) Yuri, K3BU |
#44
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:01:53 GMT, "Jimmie"
wrote: I was under the impression that radiation efficency was pretty much a" no-brainer".If the antenna is built of quality materials with good workmanship the antenna would be an efficent radiator with little ohmic or dielectric losses. The exception to this of course would be antennas that use an earth ground. I just found I was losing at least 3 db to heating up the ground. Hi Jimmie, 3dB heating up the ground with an antenna that has 5dBi gain in the preferred direction and launch angle compared to an antenna that has no ground and 0dBi gain in the same preferred direction and launch angle may give you pause and allow the worms some comfort on a cold day. Workmanship and quality materials tests those reputations vastly more for smaller antennas than standard sized ones. Those 1 meter loops used for HF are not rated for the lower bands for very good reasons, and they claim (and I believe them) high standards for their product. However, if you could resonate them in the 160M band, you'd be lucky to see 1% efficiency. Small antennas carry a lot of baggage, and any claims of efficiency superior to the standard antennas they replace are suspect. When they qualify that efficiency in creative terms like "more efficient per unit length" you would do well to skip that and ask for field strengths out 10 miles. A model called the eh had an FCC style site survey performed to which they crowed it proved their design was equal or better to a full size antenna. The data revealed results 10 and 20 miles out were 15-17dB down below that same standard they were so much more efficient than. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#45
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 04:24:52 GMT, Richard Clark
wrote: Workmanship and quality materials tests those reputations vastly more for smaller antennas than standard sized ones. Those 1 meter loops used for HF are not rated for the lower bands for very good reasons, and they claim (and I believe them) high standards for their product. However, if you could resonate them in the 160M band, you'd be lucky to see 1% efficiency. You would be lucky if you could get 10 % efficiency at 40 m for these 1 m loops. Since the radiation resistance is inversely proportional of the fourth power of frequency and the skin effect losses proportional to the square root frequency, one could expect to get nearly 1 % efficiency at 80 m and well below 0.1 % efficiency at 160 m. On the European 135 kHz LF band, the practical vertical antennas are usually less than 0.01 .. 0.02 WL, the estimated efficiency is less than 0.1 %, so more than 1 kW has to be driven into the antenna to even get 1 W of ERP. This 1 W ERP limit is used by many countries and still narrow band contacts of several thousand kilometers are made. Unfortunately, trying to compensate the low efficiency in a small magnetic loop with a high transmitter power is not very practical, since the voltages would be huge. Thus, if some exotic small antenna with inevitably low efficiency is to be used, I would first check that it can constantly handle the full legal limit power, so that it would be possible to compensate for the lower efficiency. The low antenna efficiency is not much of a problem in receiving on LF, MF and lower HF frequencies, since the band noise is still well above the receiver front end noise. However, on upper HF and above, a low efficiency will degrade the reception, especially if the receiver noise figure is high (which it often is in HF receivers that try to maximise the intermodulation performance). Paul OH3LWR |
#46
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"Richard Clark" wrote in message ... On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 03:01:53 GMT, "Jimmie" wrote: I was under the impression that radiation efficency was pretty much a" no-brainer".If the antenna is built of quality materials with good workmanship the antenna would be an efficent radiator with little ohmic or dielectric losses. The exception to this of course would be antennas that use an earth ground. I just found I was losing at least 3 db to heating up the ground. Hi Jimmie, 3dB heating up the ground with an antenna that has 5dBi gain in the preferred direction and launch angle compared to an antenna that has no ground and 0dBi gain in the same preferred direction and launch angle may give you pause and allow the worms some comfort on a cold day. Workmanship and quality materials tests those reputations vastly more for smaller antennas than standard sized ones. Those 1 meter loops used for HF are not rated for the lower bands for very good reasons, and they claim (and I believe them) high standards for their product. However, if you could resonate them in the 160M band, you'd be lucky to see 1% efficiency. Small antennas carry a lot of baggage, and any claims of efficiency superior to the standard antennas they replace are suspect. When they qualify that efficiency in creative terms like "more efficient per unit length" you would do well to skip that and ask for field strengths out 10 miles. A model called the eh had an FCC style site survey performed to which they crowed it proved their design was equal or better to a full size antenna. The data revealed results 10 and 20 miles out were 15-17dB down below that same standard they were so much more efficient than. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Certain products that include antennas may have to be tested for emissions on a standardized site called an OATS, but that is a very bad choice for antenna measurements (distance is 10 meters at most, and there is a perfectly conducting ground plane). As an engineer, I prefer to see performance data obtained in as simple an environment as possible. But as a ham, I also have to admit that most people don't use antennas under "test range" conditions. I can easily imagine an antenna that looks good in "test range" conditions, but is badly influenced by real-life items like proximity to ground, chimneys and trees. Does the FCC (or anyone else) define any standard site for measurement of antennas? Could the closest thing be NIST's antenna calibration ranges? Ed wb6wsn |
#47
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"Ed Price" wrote
I can easily imagine an antenna that looks good in "test range" conditions, but is badly influenced by real-life items like proximity to ground, chimneys and trees. Does the FCC (or anyone else) define any standard site for measurement of antennas? Could the closest thing be NIST's antenna calibration ranges? _________________ Most test ranges are designed to measure (as accurately as practical) the radiation pattern of the antenna hardware alone, and normally in relative field only -- not in absolute gain. The affect of the installation environment on the free-space patterns of an antenna vary widely. The azimuth patterns of FM broadcast transmit antennas are sometimes measured at the OEM's test range while mounted on a section of tower, and in the mounting configuration to be used for the final installation. That will show how the signal will be "launched," but gives no final data about how well the antenna will perform after installation. That will depend on its height above ground and propagation conditions along the path from the transmit site to the receiver. RF Visit http://rfry.org for FM broadcast RF system papers. |
#48
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 02:04:23 -0700, "Ed Price"
wrote: Does the FCC (or anyone else) define any standard site for measurement of antennas? Hi Ed, It is called in situ. A field survey is required in the process of licensing. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
#49
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"Richard Clark" wrote
Does the FCC (or anyone else) define any standard site for measurement of antennas? Hi Ed, It is called in situ. A field survey is required in the process of licensing. _______________ However the FCC does *not* require in situ measurements for the proof/operation of ANY transmit antenna used for FM or television broadcast -- whether required to be directional or not. If directional, the required pattern is defined in the license application/grant, and is demonstrated only via relative field measurements by the antenna OEM on his test range. The reason is that the measured value on VHF/UHF can depend at least as much on the propagation paths to the measured points as the true radiation pattern from the antenna hardware itself. In situ measurements are required for certain qualified bearings on the calculated radiation patterns of MW broadcast directional arrays, to ensure that co-channel interference is controlled. There really isn't another choice in this case -- the array is purpose-built on site. Erecting and testing it off site would not be practical, and the terrain likely would be different anyway. MW directional arrays also have means of adjusting the phase and power in each radiator to adjust the pattern values as shown needed by the monitoring point measurements. RF Visit http://rfry.org for FM broadcast RF system papers. |
#50
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:59:54 -0500, "Richard Fry"
wrote: However the FCC does *not* require in situ measurements for the proof/operation of ANY transmit antenna used for FM or television broadcast -- ¿ does not clash with The reason is that the measured value on VHF/UHF can depend at least as much on the propagation paths ? 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
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