On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 07:44:53 +0000, Spike
wrote:

Very interesting, but I'd have to say that none of what you say refutes
my original contention that the distant station, which after all is the
one we are trying to communicate with, will notice any difference to the
received signal whether the sending station's antenna was tuned with a
20c torch bulb or a $300 VNA. You touched on the main vagaries of the
system when you said "What I've found is that such side by side
comparisons do not account for variations in propagation, path,
interference, local noise, time of day, position of the moon, and other
factors beyond the operators control".

Perhaps an analogy might be useful. Instead of an HF radio, you're
dealing with your automobile. Under normal circumstances, it will get
you to work and back fairly efficiently. However, you notice that
your gasoline (petrol) mileage is not quite what you might expect. So,
you have a choice of mechanics. The first mechanic tunes the engine
with a light bulb, divining rod, magic incantations, and offers a
rather bizarre description of what work was done on the vehicle. The
second mechanic uses proper computerized test equipment to analyze the
situation, uses factory parts, and delivers the car with a detailed
printout of what was done, what changes were made, what parts were
used, and a before-after gas mileage comparison performed on a
dynamometer.

Now, which mechanic would you prefer? Your car will still go to work
and back in some manner. The second mechanic will cost more, because
he has to pay for all the expensive equipment and genuine parts. If
you're impoverished, obviously the first mechanic will be the only
available choice, but assuming you plan to keep the vehicle, one might
suspect it is a bad long term solution.

From my perspective, both professional and as a ham, I deal in
numbers. I can tell by looking at the numbers what is happening and
what needs to be done. I have a small collection of aging test
equipment to help me generate the numbers. Light bulbs do not
generate numbers and are therefore (in my never humble opinion)
useless and worthless.

However, I will concede that if your intent is "to be able to transmit
signals intended to be received by another station", a light bulb is
sufficient to determine that your transmitter is spewing RF, spurs,
harmonics, and noise into an antenna-like device that is either
radiating the RF, absorbing it into heat, or reflecting it back to the
transmitter (because the light bulb indicates the same in both
directions).



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

In article ,
says...

Perhaps an analogy might be useful. Instead of an HF radio, you're
dealing with your automobile. Under normal circumstances, it will get
you to work and back fairly efficiently. However, you notice that
your gasoline (petrol) mileage is not quite what you might expect. So,
you have a choice of mechanics. The first mechanic tunes the engine
with a light bulb, divining rod, magic incantations, and offers a
rather bizarre description of what work was done on the vehicle. The
second mechanic uses proper computerized test equipment to analyze the
situation, uses factory parts, and delivers the car with a detailed
printout of what was done, what changes were made, what parts were
used, and a before-after gas mileage comparison performed on a
dynamometer.

Now, which mechanic would you prefer? Your car will still go to work
and back in some manner. The second mechanic will cost more, because
he has to pay for all the expensive equipment and genuine parts. If
you're impoverished, obviously the first mechanic will be the only
available choice, but assuming you plan to keep the vehicle, one might
suspect it is a bad long term solution.



Again, it all depends on the mechanic. The computer tune may only get
you a small improvement and it will take 5 years to make up the cost
difference. I had a car that started running real bad. After the
simple things I replaced like spark plugs, wires and coil, I looked on
an Autozone page and one thing was a $ 500 sensor that may cause the
problem. I took it to a dealer that should have all the proper
equipment. After about 3 weeks he finally replaced that sensor and it
fixed the problem. The part would have taken less than half an hour to
replace. They may still have been working on it if I had not sent off a
nice email to Toyota after a week and a half of no repair.

I know of a case where a Freeze plug was leaking and the motor company
wanted to pull the engine to get to it. Shade tree mechanic pulled back
the carpet inside the car, took a hole saw and cut a hole in the
firewall to get to the plug. Repaired the hole with a beer can and pop
rivits for less than $ 100.

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:22:28 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

Again, it all depends on the mechanic. The computer tune may only get
you a small improvement and it will take 5 years to make up the cost
difference. I had a car that started running real bad. After the
simple things I replaced like spark plugs, wires and coil, I looked on
an Autozone page and one thing was a $ 500 sensor that may cause the
problem. I took it to a dealer that should have all the proper
equipment. After about 3 weeks he finally replaced that sensor and it
fixed the problem. The part would have taken less than half an hour to
replace. They may still have been working on it if I had not sent off a
nice email to Toyota after a week and a half of no repair.

I know of a case where a Freeze plug was leaking and the motor company
wanted to pull the engine to get to it. Shade tree mechanic pulled back
the carpet inside the car, took a hole saw and cut a hole in the
firewall to get to the plug. Repaired the hole with a beer can and pop
rivits for less than $ 100.

All that you've shown is that an idiot with all the technology of
modern electronics can screw things up, and that simple repairs can be
done simply and cheaply by someone who has some experience. I'm
talking about a given situation, which could be done with either a
light bulb or a pile of test equipment. Not two different repair
situations.

So, let's take your blown $500 black box, presumably out of warranty.
Would you take the problem to the shade tree mechanic with his beer
can and pop rivet tool? What would you expect him to do? Drill open
the black box and start replacing parts until it works? Would he
offer a warranty? At best, he would find a similar black box at a
scrap yard, box rebuider, or midnight auto, and sell it to you at a
discount. Would you consider that acceptable?

Let me bring it closer to home. You purchased an expensive HF radio
with all the bells and whistles. It's out of warranty and you need
something fixed. Would you send it to 1) the factory, 2) an
authorized repair station, 3) a rebuilder in China, 4) the ham
equivalent of the shade tree mechanic, or 5) the teenager next door?
The distinction between these choices is a experience and training,
but also access to the necessary test equipment and parts. Better
yet, if you knew any of these used a light bulb to determine if your
transmitter was working, and a "talk test" as QA, would you do
business with them?

No need to answer the questions. Just think about the implications.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 16/10/2018 20:47, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Let me bring it closer to home. You purchased an expensive HF radio
with all the bells and whistles. It's out of warranty and you need
something fixed. Would you send it to 1) the factory, 2) an
authorized repair station, 3) a rebuilder in China, 4) the ham
equivalent of the shade tree mechanic, or 5) the teenager next door?

If you send to anyone other than yourself then you are not
a real radio ham or radio amateur.

A CBer, probably.

Gareth's Downstairs Computer
wrote:
On 16/10/2018 20:47, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Let me bring it closer to home. You purchased an expensive HF radio
with all the bells and whistles. It's out of warranty and you need
something fixed. Would you send it to 1) the factory, 2) an
authorized repair station, 3) a rebuilder in China, 4) the ham
equivalent of the shade tree mechanic, or 5) the teenager next door?

If you send to anyone other than yourself then you are not
a real radio ham or radio amateur.

A CBer, probably.

G is for gurgler.

--
STC / M0TEY /
http://twitter.com/ukradioamateur

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:48:04 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
wrote:

On 16/10/2018 20:47, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Let me bring it closer to home. You purchased an expensive HF radio
with all the bells and whistles. It's out of warranty and you need
something fixed. Would you send it to 1) the factory, 2) an
authorized repair station, 3) a rebuilder in China, 4) the ham
equivalent of the shade tree mechanic, or 5) the teenager next door?

If you send to anyone other than yourself then you are not
a real radio ham or radio amateur.

Are you suggesting that you have the ability to repair a modern HF
radio? Do you have the equipment? Do you have the knowledge? I have
both and believe me, it's often very difficult. Today's electronics
is not made to be easily repaired. Much of the stuff I fix was sent
to me after some ham attempted to fix it themselves. Usually, they
won't admit it. On the repair bench right now is an Astron power
supply, an MFJ-259 antenna analyzer, two HP5300 series counters, and
unfortunately, my IFR-1500 service monitor. All of them are the
results of botched repairs. Can you do better? After you fail, which
of the above 5 choices would be your next step? Or would you just
sell the radio and pretend there was nothing wrong?

A CBer, probably.

It's interesting that all of your brilliant pontifications include a
derogatory comment about CB'ers. That's odd because I've always
assumed that you are a CB'er or at least own and use a CB radio. Is
that true? Is it possible for you to write something without
mentioning CB or insulting the reader in some manner? Judging by your
past history, I doubt it.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 17/10/2018 16:00, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:48:04 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
wrote:

On 16/10/2018 20:47, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Let me bring it closer to home. You purchased an expensive HF radio
with all the bells and whistles. It's out of warranty and you need
something fixed. Would you send it to 1) the factory, 2) an
authorized repair station, 3) a rebuilder in China, 4) the ham
equivalent of the shade tree mechanic, or 5) the teenager next door?

If you send to anyone other than yourself then you are not
a real radio ham or radio amateur.

Are you suggesting that you have the ability to repair a modern HF
radio?

Yes

Do you have the equipment?

Yes

Do you have the knowledge?

Yes

I have
both and believe me, it's often very difficult.

Best deal with someone else who is competent, then.

Today's electronics
is not made to be easily repaired.

Best deal with someone else who is competent, then.

Much of the stuff I fix was sent
to me after some ham attempted to fix it themselves. Usually, they
won't admit it. On the repair bench right now is an Astron power
supply, an MFJ-259 antenna analyzer, two HP5300 series counters, and
unfortunately, my IFR-1500 service monitor. All of them are the
results of botched repairs. Can you do better?

Yes. Send them to me with prepaid return packaging.



After you fail, which
of the above 5 choices would be your next step?

I don't fail, so your question has no meaning.

Or would you just
sell the radio and pretend there was nothing wrong?

That's your train of thought but not mine.


A CBer, probably.

It's interesting that all of your brilliant pontifications include a
derogatory comment about CB'ers.

I don't make derogatory comments about CBers but I do distinguish
the operating hobby which is CB Radio and the whole-life technical
pursuit that is amateur radio. CBers in their own world are harmless
until they try to pass themselves off as radio amateurs.


That's odd because I've always
assumed that you are a CB'er or at least own and use a CB radio.

Your modus operandi is to be rude, which is why you are largely
passed over without even being read.


Is
that true?

I am not in a position to determine that what you said is what you
assumed.


Is it possible for you to write something without
mentioning CB or insulting the reader in some manner?

I do not insult my readership. That is your habit.

Judging by your
past history, I doubt it.

Your habit. QED.

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:48:04 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
wrote:

On 16/10/2018 20:47, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Let me bring it closer to home. You purchased an expensive HF radio
with all the bells and whistles. It's out of warranty and you need
something fixed. Would you send it to 1) the factory, 2) an
authorized repair station, 3) a rebuilder in China, 4) the ham
equivalent of the shade tree mechanic, or 5) the teenager next door?

If you send to anyone other than yourself then you are not
a real radio ham or radio amateur.

Are you suggesting that you have the ability to repair a modern HF
radio?

He’s got a track record of not even being able to tune up an FT101 because
his copy of the manual was missing the relevant pages.

Do you have the equipment? Do you have the knowledge? I have
both and believe me, it's often very difficult. Today's electronics
is not made to be easily repaired. Much of the stuff I fix was sent
to me after some ham attempted to fix it themselves. Usually, they
won't admit it. On the repair bench right now is an Astron power
supply, an MFJ-259 antenna analyzer, two HP5300 series counters, and
unfortunately, my IFR-1500 service monitor. All of them are the
results of botched repairs. Can you do better? After you fail, which
of the above 5 choices would be your next step? Or would you just
sell the radio and pretend there was nothing wrong?

A CBer, probably.

It's interesting that all of your brilliant pontifications include a
derogatory comment about CB'ers. That's odd because I've always
assumed that you are a CB'er or at least own and use a CB radio. Is
that true? Is it possible for you to write something without
mentioning CB or insulting the reader in some manner? Judging by your
past history, I doubt it.

Gareth tried CB once but botched the install in his car so badly his signal
couldn’t get even a quarter mile away. It’s all in the archives.

--
STC / M0TEY /
http://twitter.com/ukradioamateur

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:00:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:48:04 +0100, Gareth's Downstairs Computer
m wrote:

On 16/10/2018 20:47, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Let me bring it closer to home. You purchased an expensive HF radio
with all the bells and whistles. It's out of warranty and you need
something fixed. Would you send it to 1) the factory, 2) an
authorized repair station, 3) a rebuilder in China, 4) the ham
equivalent of the shade tree mechanic, or 5) the teenager next door?

If you send to anyone other than yourself then you are not
a real radio ham or radio amateur.

Are you suggesting that you have the ability to repair a modern HF
radio? Do you have the equipment? Do you have the knowledge? I have
both and believe me, it's often very difficult. Today's electronics
is not made to be easily repaired. Much of the stuff I fix was sent
to me after some ham attempted to fix it themselves. Usually, they
won't admit it. On the repair bench right now is an Astron power
supply, an MFJ-259 antenna analyzer, two HP5300 series counters,

Which ones, if you don't mind my asking?

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 20:55:22 +0100, Custos Custodum
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:00:55 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
Much of the stuff I fix was sent
to me after some ham attempted to fix it themselves. Usually, they
won't admit it. On the repair bench right now is an Astron power
supply, an MFJ-259 antenna analyzer, two HP5300 series counters,

Which ones, if you don't mind my asking?

I'm now sure what you mean by "which ones" so I'll detail all that I
have in the queue.

1. Astron VS-35m. On arrival, it has all 4 pass transistors blown,
the 723CN regulator blown, two 1N4002 diodes shorted, and a 2N3906
shorted. That left a TIP29 transistor and an MCR225 SCR, which I've
elected to replace instead of test. I don't know what caused all the
damage but I'll confess to blowing up the 723CN regulator by plugging
it into the IC socket backwards.

2. Yet another MJF-259 to repair. I posted a web page on how to fix
these after the input bridge is blown up. It's easy to blow and
doesn't even require a transmitter. You can easily do it with just a
static discharge to the coax connector center pin.
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/MFJ-269-repair/
The one I'm trying to repair is an early model and has the usual blown
RF shottky input diodes, with some water damage, leaky battery damage,
and the chronic crappy MFJ soldering on the ribbon cables. Note that
the needed diodes are discontinued and are becoming difficult to find.
I just ordered 100pcs on eBay.

The repair will be easy enough, but the subsequent calibration is a
real time burner. The owner has graciously offered to do the work if
he could do it at my shop as he's lacking in some of the needed test
equipment.
https://www.mfjenterprises.com/MFJ-259Bcalibration.php (not so good)
https://www.w8ji.com/mfj-259b_calibration.htm (more better)

3. There are now three counters in the queue.
One HP5300A counter with HP5302A 50MHz universal counter front end.
Two HP5300B counter with HP5308A 75MHz timer/counter front end
https://picclick.com/HEWLETT-PACKARD-MEASURING-SYSTEM-5300B-HP-50MHz-Universal-123106839896.html
I also have motley assortment of D/A, DC power, and plotter interface.
They all work except the batteries in the DC supply should be
replaced. All the counter sections seem to have the same problems.
There electrolytics in the AC supply show high ESR and all the rotary
switch contacts are tarnished. I just slopped some mineral oil and
oleic acid mix on one of the switches. The contacts look clean and
there are no more bad connections. I'll wash off the acid tomorrow so
that none of the nearby copper becomes corroded. I just ordered some
substitute electrolytics on eBay.

Looking around the shop, there's quite a bit of additional test
equipment that could use my attention. Most of it is not worth the
time but I do it anyway. For example, three sweep generators:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/slides/BL-shop5.html
There also a bunch of big linear power supplies that probably need new
electrolytics. My IFR-1500 has a blown power supply that I can't seem
to fix. I thought I had it fixed in 2010, but it died again in 2015:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/IFR-1500%20Power%20Supply%20Repair/IFR-1500%20power%20supply%20repair.html

Does that answer your question?

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558