Cecil and his confederates will soon be taking into account the difference
in current, and the forward and backward reflections, between the ends of
the coil in a Pi-match network between the plate and 50-ohm output socket of
the common or garden 807 linear power amplifier. The Pi-match network
behaves as a 1/4-wave transmission line impedance matching transformer. Keep
going Cec!

And it has not yet been sorted out whether or not a congugate match exists.

There's a long way still to go. ;o) ;o)
---
Reg.

Reg Edwards wrote:

Cecil and his confederates will soon be taking into account the difference
in current, and the forward and backward reflections, between the ends of
the coil in a Pi-match network between the plate and 50-ohm output socket of
the common or garden 807 linear power amplifier. The Pi-match network
behaves as a 1/4-wave transmission line impedance matching transformer. Keep
going Cec!

Reg, I cannot believe you would side with the people who claim there is zero
delay through a p-net coil. Do you also believe in faster than light
propagation of signals? If there is a delay in one foot of copper wire,
don't you think it is reasonable to expect a delay in 20 feet of copper
wire formed into a coil?

Is the number of degrees on a Smith Chart between 0+j0 ohms and 0+j50 ohms
just a figment of my imagination?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Watch this space for another thrilling episode of the long-running,
nerve-tingling mystery story "The Case of the Missing Third Wire".

Reg Edwards wrote:
Watch this space for another thrilling episode of the long-running,
nerve-tingling mystery story "The Case of the Missing Third Wire".

Reg, you have a black box in the middle of a transmission line with
a high SWR. You measure the current into the box and current out of
the box. You measure 1 amp at 0 degrees going in and 1 amp at 180 degrees
going out. This means that both currents are flowing into the box at
the same time. There is no third wire. What's in the box?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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What's in the box?

Reg with whatever he is drinking :-)

Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"Reg, you have a black box in the middle of a transmission line with a
high SWR. You measure the current into the box and out of the box, You
measure 1 amp into the box and out of the box, You measure 1 amp and 0
degrees going in and 1 amp at 180 degrees going out. This means that
both currents are flowing into the box at the same time. There is no
third wire. What`s in the box?"

A phase inverter.

You could have a center-tapped coil in the box. One end and the center
could take the input. The other end and the center could provide an
output 180-degrees out of phase with the input.

This requires a minimum of three terminals but only 2 wires in and 2
wires out. If 2 directions of travel are allowed on a pair, an open or a
short reverses the direction (phase) of the reflected wave.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

Richard Harrison wrote:
Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"Reg, you have a black box in the middle of a transmission line with a
high SWR. You measure the current into the box and out of the box, You
measure 1 amp into the box and out of the box, You measure 1 amp and 0
degrees going in and 1 amp at 180 degrees going out. This means that
both currents are flowing into the box at the same time. There is no
third wire. What`s in the box?"

A phase inverter.

You could have a center-tapped coil in the box. One end and the center
could take the input. The other end and the center could provide an
output 180-degrees out of phase with the input.

Yep, that's one answer. Another answer is a piece of low-loss transmission
line that shifts the phase by 180 degrees, i.e. 1/2WL of transmission line.

Point is that unequal currents at the input and output of a black box are
easy to achieve and do not violate Kirchhoff's laws. Although physically
small, this black box does not meet the definition of a lumped circuit.

A bugcatcher coil on a 75m mobile antenna also does not meet the
definition of a lumped circuit.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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This is misleading.

The Rule is that the sum of currents on *all* the box's conductors has
to add to zero. If the box has only two terminals, the sum of the two
has to be zero -- the only way to get around that would be to put Cecil
into the box and have him suck coulombs just as fast as he can. If that
two-terminal box contains an inductor, then the current out has to equal
the current in -- that's the only way the sum of currents at the two
terminals can sum to zero. Provided, of course, that the box is very
small in terms of wavelength, and we're measuring over the long term.
It's ok to suck up and store charge for a while -- but not forever.

When you put even a third terminal on the box, you have a lot more
choices as to what you put into it -- an autotransformer, for example.
Then you can find any number of gee, whiz, Mr. Science, absolutely
wonderful things about the voltages and currents to dazzle the
technically uncertain. The four terminals of Cecil's box provide even
more opportunities to amaze. But one thing you can take to the bank,
folks: the sum of the currents on all the terminals better add to zero.
Unless, of course, Cecil is in the box.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL

Cecil Moore wrote:
Richard Harrison wrote:

Cecil, W5DXP wrote:
"Reg, you have a black box in the middle of a transmission line with a
high SWR. You measure the current into the box and out of the box, You
measure 1 amp into the box and out of the box, You measure 1 amp and 0
degrees going in and 1 amp at 180 degrees going out. This means that
both currents are flowing into the box at the same time. There is no
third wire. What`s in the box?"

A phase inverter.

You could have a center-tapped coil in the box. One end and the center
could take the input. The other end and the center could provide an
output 180-degrees out of phase with the input.


Yep, that's one answer. Another answer is a piece of low-loss transmission
line that shifts the phase by 180 degrees, i.e. 1/2WL of transmission line.

Point is that unequal currents at the input and output of a black box are
easy to achieve and do not violate Kirchhoff's laws. Although physically
small, this black box does not meet the definition of a lumped circuit.

A bugcatcher coil on a 75m mobile antenna also does not meet the
definition of a lumped circuit.

Cecil Moore wrote in message

A bugcatcher coil on a 75m mobile antenna also does not meet the
definition of a lumped circuit.

Dunno. I think it does. Not perfect by any means, but I still think it
"acts" pretty much like a lumped inductor. MK