Cecil Moore wrote:

John Smith wrote:

You surprise me, Einstein thought, eventually, one equation would be
found, probably about one-inch long--which would explain all...
You follow in his footsteps, you are adept at seeing relationships!!!!


If one just takes existence at face value, one lives closer
to that which actually exists. Time, like language, may
be just a human characteristic.

A great mystery for sure. I think that the beginning-being-end of
things - as related to the experience of humanity - makes for a
necessary concept. That would be time.

At least in this existence, we have a finite appearance. So time is
very real. Here.


Ever try to talk about
time without using time-sensitive words, e.g. the tenses
of verbs? :-)

Verbs can make one very tense....

- Mike KB3EIA -

Cecil Moore wrote:

John Smith wrote:

Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when the
Earth began its' first revolution!!!)


Precisely 4.5 billion years ago. :-) Strange as it may seem,
there is evidence, gathered by comparing Bristlecone Pine
rings to atomic dating methods, that a second today is
shorter than a second was yesterday. Shortening the length
of a second gives a whole new meaning to the Red Shift.

I had the great fortune of attending a talk given by a paleontologist,
in which he noted that microgrowth rings of fossil shells do indeed show
that the day length has indeed shortened. Although he was careful not to
draw any definitive conclusions - yet - it was apparent that due to the
changes in the Earth's orbit over time were giving rise to changes in
the length of the solar day, which in turn end up changing the length of
all the units that we use to measure time.

That time occurs is not all that arguable to me. Our measurements of it
is a modifiable thing tho'.

- Mike KB3EIA -



- Mike KB3EIA

Cecil Moore wrote:

Reg Edwards wrote:

"Cecil Moore" asks -

Did time exist before man?


Entirely insignificant mankind could not possibly have had any
influence on the course of the Universe.


That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
universe got along just fine without the existence of
time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
here?

Something has to tell me when to get to work..........

- Mike KB3EIA -

What is "time?" If I trapped it in a bottle--what would I be looking at?

Regards,
John

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
| Cecil Moore wrote:
|
| John Smith wrote:
|
| Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when the
| Earth began its' first revolution!!!)
|
|
| Precisely 4.5 billion years ago. :-) Strange as it may seem,
| there is evidence, gathered by comparing Bristlecone Pine
| rings to atomic dating methods, that a second today is
| shorter than a second was yesterday. Shortening the length
| of a second gives a whole new meaning to the Red Shift.
|
| I had the great fortune of attending a talk given by a paleontologist,
| in which he noted that microgrowth rings of fossil shells do indeed show
| that the day length has indeed shortened. Although he was careful not to
| draw any definitive conclusions - yet - it was apparent that due to the
| changes in the Earth's orbit over time were giving rise to changes in
| the length of the solar day, which in turn end up changing the length of
| all the units that we use to measure time.
|
| That time occurs is not all that arguable to me. Our measurements of it
| is a modifiable thing tho'.
|
| - Mike KB3EIA -
|
|
|
| - Mike KB3EIA

Mike Coslo wrote:
Certainly life forms that presumably
do *not* have consciousness, such as bacteria, have a beginning, a being
and an end. So is time dependent upon a life form possessing sentience?
If a sentient being such as man is not there to invent the concept of
time, do all those constructs that have a beginning and end cease to exist?

It's even more complicated than that. When a bacteria divides,
the two resulting individuals are identical, not parent and
child. So, barring mutations, any bacteria that is not extinct
is immortal. Time is absolutely meaningless to such an organism.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Mike Coslo wrote:
At least in this existence, we have a finite appearance. So time is
very real. Here.

How would your life change if time didn't really
exist and your calendar and clock simply marked
changes in degrees of rotation of the earth?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Mike Coslo wrote:
That time occurs is not all that arguable to me. Our measurements of
it is a modifiable thing tho'.

Try assuming that time doesn't exist and you are keeping track
of change referenced to the rotation of the earth on its axis
plus earth's orbit around the sun. What is different?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Mike Coslo wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
universe got along just fine without the existence of
time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
here?

Something has to tell me when to get to work..........

The existence of time is not necessary for that function.
A mechanical device synchronized to the roatation of the
earth on its axis can do that. A piece of paper marking
4/1461 of the earth's orbit around the sun can keep track
of days of one year. Or just make a mark every time the
sun rises.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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WOW, flash--I'd never thought of that!!!
When I am i'll, it isn't trillions of bacteria making me i'll--IT IS ONLY
ONE!!!

Thanks...

Warmest regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| Mike Coslo wrote:
| Certainly life forms that presumably
| do *not* have consciousness, such as bacteria, have a beginning, a being
| and an end. So is time dependent upon a life form possessing sentience?
| If a sentient being such as man is not there to invent the concept of
| time, do all those constructs that have a beginning and end cease to
exist?
|
| It's even more complicated than that. When a bacteria divides,
| the two resulting individuals are identical, not parent and
| child. So, barring mutations, any bacteria that is not extinct
| is immortal. Time is absolutely meaningless to such an organism.
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
|
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No, you would be listening to Jim Croche...

How long is a piece of string.

"John Smith" wrote in message
...

What is "time?" If I trapped it in a bottle--what would I be looking at?

John Smith wrote:

What is "time?" If I trapped it in a bottle--what would I be looking at?


Probably similar to a photon trapped in a bottle! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -




"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
| Cecil Moore wrote:
|
| John Smith wrote:
|
| Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when the
| Earth began its' first revolution!!!)
|
|
| Precisely 4.5 billion years ago. :-) Strange as it may seem,
| there is evidence, gathered by comparing Bristlecone Pine
| rings to atomic dating methods, that a second today is
| shorter than a second was yesterday. Shortening the length
| of a second gives a whole new meaning to the Red Shift.
|
| I had the great fortune of attending a talk given by a paleontologist,
| in which he noted that microgrowth rings of fossil shells do indeed show
| that the day length has indeed shortened. Although he was careful not to
| draw any definitive conclusions - yet - it was apparent that due to the
| changes in the Earth's orbit over time were giving rise to changes in
| the length of the solar day, which in turn end up changing the length of
| all the units that we use to measure time.
|
| That time occurs is not all that arguable to me. Our measurements of it
| is a modifiable thing tho'.
|
| - Mike KB3EIA -
|
|
|
| - Mike KB3EIA

LOL!!! Naturally, my eyes are NOT as good as they used to be--probably
couldn't even enjoy viewing it with my glasses on...

Warmest regards,
John

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
|
| What is "time?" If I trapped it in a bottle--what would I be looking
at?
|
|
| Probably similar to a photon trapped in a bottle! 8^)
|
| - Mike KB3EIA -
|
|
|
|
| "Mike Coslo" wrote in message
| ...
| | Cecil Moore wrote:
| |
| | John Smith wrote:
| |
| | Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when
the
| | Earth began its' first revolution!!!)
| |
| |
| | Precisely 4.5 billion years ago. :-) Strange as it may seem,
| | there is evidence, gathered by comparing Bristlecone Pine
| | rings to atomic dating methods, that a second today is
| | shorter than a second was yesterday. Shortening the length
| | of a second gives a whole new meaning to the Red Shift.
| |
| | I had the great fortune of attending a talk given by a paleontologist,
| | in which he noted that microgrowth rings of fossil shells do indeed
show
| | that the day length has indeed shortened. Although he was careful not
to
| | draw any definitive conclusions - yet - it was apparent that due to
the
| | changes in the Earth's orbit over time were giving rise to changes in
| | the length of the solar day, which in turn end up changing the length
of
| | all the units that we use to measure time.
| |
| | That time occurs is not all that arguable to me. Our measurements of
it
| | is a modifiable thing tho'.
| |
| | - Mike KB3EIA -
| |
| |
| |
| | - Mike KB3EIA
|
|

Fred:

Quit trying to open up string theory, no one wants to go there!!! I have a
hard enough time with antennas!!! grin

Warmest regards,
John

"Fred W4JLE" wrote in message
...
|
| No, you would be listening to Jim Croche...
|
| How long is a piece of string.
|
| "John Smith" wrote in message
| ...
|
| What is "time?" If I trapped it in a bottle--what would I be looking
at?
|
|
|

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:15:16 -0700, "John Smith"
wrote:
.....snip

Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but again,
physical change and movement!)

Dear John,

The essence of Life is Change.

The essence of Change is Time.

Without Time there is no Change - without Change there is no Life.

Without time, the existence of that entity or "Geist" that could
imagine a concept of "Time" could not exist.

Therefore, Time might well be the most fundamental of fundamentals.


Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA
Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail
http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk
http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
Mike Coslo wrote:
At least in this existence, we have a finite appearance. So time is
very real. Here.

How would your life change if time didn't really
exist and your calendar and clock simply marked
changes in degrees of rotation of the earth?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


Can you define "changes" without reference to time?

Well, you make an excellent argument, and you are certainly correct that
"time" is a fairy tale that we can use to good advantage, and we are better
off for being "fools" and believing in the "myth"--it benefits us, and if we
don't look too hard, it appears "REAL"--but "time" is NOT real...
Change is movement--and movement is what "time" was constructed to record...
and the earths movement is all it ever recorded (well, heavenly bodies, pick
one, you can use "that" one too.)
Time in a bottle would be the earth rotating, or a bit of radioactive
loosing atomic particles, and a little man counting the number of them
lost...

Warmest regards,
John

"W9DMK (Robert Lay)" wrote in message
...
| On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:15:16 -0700, "John Smith"
| wrote:
| ....snip
|
| Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
| movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
| planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but
again,
| physical change and movement!)
|
| Dear John,
|
| The essence of Life is Change.
|
| The essence of Change is Time.
|
| Without Time there is no Change - without Change there is no Life.
|
| Without time, the existence of that entity or "Geist" that could
| imagine a concept of "Time" could not exist.
|
| Therefore, Time might well be the most fundamental of fundamentals.
|
|
| Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA
| Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail
| http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk
| http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html
|

Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

At least in this existence, we have a finite appearance. So time is
very real. Here.


How would your life change if time didn't really
exist and your calendar and clock simply marked
changes in degrees of rotation of the earth?

How would they exist? Unless the observer were incredibly dense, it
would be noted that the stars or position of the sun, or whatever they
based their degree system on - would return to something that looked a
lot like an earlier state.

It is difficult to imagine how mortal, intelligent creatures would not
develop a concept of time. The concept (reality?) seems ingrained in
almost everything we do, say, or think.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Wait, I just realized that may be in error, earlier, in another thread of
this group, Cecil mentioned a turtle!!! Perhaps Cecil will fill us in on
that turtle more--it sounded pretty special, and carried a whole world on
its back--if that were the case--I am sure "time" must finally resolve to
"Turtle Footsteps!" just-a-jesting-ya-Cecil grin

I "mock" "time", but hold it in high value.... other things in life are the
same for me...

Warmest regards,
John

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
| Well, you make an excellent argument, and you are certainly correct that
| "time" is a fairy tale that we can use to good advantage, and we are
better
| off for being "fools" and believing in the "myth"--it benefits us, and if
we
| don't look too hard, it appears "REAL"--but "time" is NOT real...
| Change is movement--and movement is what "time" was constructed to
record...
| and the earths movement is all it ever recorded (well, heavenly bodies,
pick
| one, you can use "that" one too.)
| Time in a bottle would be the earth rotating, or a bit of radioactive
| loosing atomic particles, and a little man counting the number of them
| lost...
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
|
| "W9DMK (Robert Lay)" wrote in message
| ...
|| On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:15:16 -0700, "John Smith"
|| wrote:
|| ....snip
||
|| Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
|| movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
|| planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but
| again,
|| physical change and movement!)
||
|| Dear John,
||
|| The essence of Life is Change.
||
|| The essence of Change is Time.
||
|| Without Time there is no Change - without Change there is no Life.
||
|| Without time, the existence of that entity or "Geist" that could
|| imagine a concept of "Time" could not exist.
||
|| Therefore, Time might well be the most fundamental of fundamentals.
||
||
|| Bob, W9DMK, Dahlgren, VA
|| Replace "nobody" with my callsign for e-mail
|| http://www.qsl.net/w9dmk
|| http://zaffora/f2o.org/W9DMK/W9dmk.html
||
|
|

Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:

That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
universe got along just fine without the existence of
time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
here?


Something has to tell me when to get to work..........


The existence of time is not necessary for that function.
A mechanical device synchronized to the roatation of the
earth on its axis can do that. A piece of paper marking
4/1461 of the earth's orbit around the sun can keep track
of days of one year. Or just make a mark every time the
sun rises.

How are we going to know that 4/1461ths of a earth rotation around the
sun is a day?

I can't help but notice that to make your points you keep referring to
concepts of time... 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike:

Hmmm, after studying this problem a bit, I have to come the conclusion
"time" is a bit like "God", both take a leap of faith.... I am simply a
"Time Athiest!" innocent-look

Warmest regards,
John

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
| Cecil Moore wrote:
|
| Mike Coslo wrote:
|
| Cecil Moore wrote:
|
| That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
| universe got along just fine without the existence of
| time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
| here?
|
|
| Something has to tell me when to get to work..........
|
|
| The existence of time is not necessary for that function.
| A mechanical device synchronized to the roatation of the
| earth on its axis can do that. A piece of paper marking
| 4/1461 of the earth's orbit around the sun can keep track
| of days of one year. Or just make a mark every time the
| sun rises.
|
| How are we going to know that 4/1461ths of a earth rotation around the
| sun is a day?
|
| I can't help but notice that to make your points you keep referring to
| concepts of time... 8^)
|
| - Mike KB3EIA -
|

Roger Conroy wrote:
Can you define "changes" without reference to time?

My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the
changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry. Time
is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality.
Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That reminds me of something I caught my Dad on one time.
Daylight savings time had just arrived and we set our
clocks forward one hour thus losing one hour of sleep. I
said, "Pity the poor birds who have to wake up an hour
earlier and fly around in the dark." My Dad said, "Yeah,
poor birds, - - - hey, wait a minute!"
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Mike Coslo wrote:
It is difficult to imagine how mortal, intelligent creatures would
not develop a concept of time. The concept (reality?) seems ingrained in
almost everything we do, say, or think.

Yep, you can say the same thing about a concept of God or a
concept of a soul. But models of reality do not dictate reality.
It is supposed to be the other way around.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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W9DMK (Robert Lay) wrote:

Dear John,

The essence of Life is Change.

The essence of Change is Time.

Without Time there is no Change - without Change there is no Life.

Without time, the existence of that entity or "Geist" that could
imagine a concept of "Time" could not exist.

Therefore, Time might well be the most fundamental of fundamentals.



"Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so" Douglas Adams

tom
K0TAR

Ohhhh! Cecil:

Just when I think it is safe to go back into the water!!!!

You said, "But models of reality do not dictate reality."
I say the following:
Then how come I first, ever, saw a "moon mission" was Jules Vernes'(sp?)
mind at work?
How come the first time I seen a LASER was in "Buck Rogers?"
etc, etc, etc, ....
I WANT to think reality is something we "find" and "learn" and exists
without man, but, why then am I bit frightened it may be created in the mind
of man (at least some of it)--and one should, "Becareful what they wish
for!"

Warmest regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| Mike Coslo wrote:
| It is difficult to imagine how mortal, intelligent creatures would
| not develop a concept of time. The concept (reality?) seems ingrained in
| almost everything we do, say, or think.
|
| Yep, you can say the same thing about a concept of God or a
| concept of a soul. But models of reality do not dictate reality.
| It is supposed to be the other way around.
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
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Mike Coslo wrote:
I can't help but notice that to make your points you keep referring
to concepts of time... 8^)

It can't be helped because concepts of time are imbedded
into our language. I can't type a sentence without a verb
tense, past, present, future, ...

The concept of time didn't exist before a conceptual animal
came along yet all the non-conceptual animals got along just
fine with no concept of time. They responded to movement and
change. Time is our shorthand math model way of keeping track
of movement and change. Doesn't mean that time actually exists.

Same is true for our other models. Your positive 'X' axis
points approximately the opposite direction 12 hours later.
The 'Z' axis is up and sweeps the universe like a quasar as
the earth rotates on its axis.

Our sacred FIXED point at the x,y,z origin is moving relative
to the center of the earth, moving relative to the center of
the sun, moving relative to the center of our local
cluster, ... Quoting from "The Tenth Dimension": "There is
a Doppler shift that appears to indicate that our entire
galaxy is moving with a speed of about 640 kilometers per
second in a direction whose significance is obscure."
Given all that movement, I'm surprised I can find my way
back to my house.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Tom:



I second the "time spatial effect" which makes "time" speed up right when
they give ya lunch!!!! Yep, it is REAL alright!!!



Regards,

John

"Tom Ring" wrote in message
. ..
| W9DMK (Robert Lay) wrote:
|
| Dear John,
|
| The essence of Life is Change.
|
| The essence of Change is Time.
|
| Without Time there is no Change - without Change there is no Life.
|
| Without time, the existence of that entity or "Geist" that could
| imagine a concept of "Time" could not exist.
|
| Therefore, Time might well be the most fundamental of fundamentals.
|
|
|
| "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so" Douglas Adams
|
| tom
| K0TAR
|

Cecil Moore wrote:

Roger Conroy wrote:

Can you define "changes" without reference to time?


My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the
changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry.

My cats know when I am coming home in the evening

Time
is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality.

Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
things happen concurrently?



Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That's hard to prove one way or the other.


- Mike KB3EIA -


- Mike KB3EIA -

Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

I can't help but notice that to make your points you keep referring to
concepts of time... 8^)


It can't be helped because concepts of time are imbedded
into our language. I can't type a sentence without a verb
tense, past, present, future, ...

Correct!

The concept of time didn't exist before a conceptual animal
came along yet all the non-conceptual animals got along just
fine with no concept of time.

That is a more tentative "correct". I don't know that animals,
especially the higher ones, don't have a concept of time.

But let us assume that they don't.

Then we came along, and spent some time (oops) contemplating the
universe. Humans could see humans being born, growing, dying. The
weather became cold, and them warm again. The seasons were in general,
predictable. When agriculture came along, those who planted their seed
at the wrong season starved. Those who watched the sky noticed a
correlation between the position of the stars at night, and the position
of the sun during the day, and the weather. Humans, having a marked
talent for finding patterns, eventually found the repetitious
correlation. As we progressed, the concept of time became more and more
refined, but none of the earliest concepts were refuted.

If is is wrong, it is magnificently so.
They responded to movement and
change. Time is our shorthand math model way of keeping track
of movement and change. Doesn't mean that time actually exists.

Same is true for our other models. Your positive 'X' axis
points approximately the opposite direction 12 hours later.
The 'Z' axis is up and sweeps the universe like a quasar as
the earth rotates on its axis.

Our sacred FIXED point at the x,y,z origin is moving relative
to the center of the earth, moving relative to the center of
the sun, moving relative to the center of our local
cluster, ... Quoting from "The Tenth Dimension": "There is
a Doppler shift that appears to indicate that our entire
galaxy is moving with a speed of about 640 kilometers per
second in a direction whose significance is obscure."
Given all that movement, I'm surprised I can find my way
back to my house.

Maybe that is why I keep getting lost! ;^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

Mike Coslo wrote:
Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
things happen concurrently?

I agree that time is the description of the interval between
happenings. What I don't accept is that time is some real
dimension existing completely independent of human concepts.

Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That's hard to prove one way or the other.

I don't recall clocks being part of the fossil record. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Time is a commodity. It can be bought.

Reg:

Kinda like all that "air" in a bag of potato chips yer payin' for??? grin

Warmest regards,
John

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
| Time is a commodity. It can be bought.
|
|

Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

That time occurs is not all that arguable to me. Our measurements of
it is a modifiable thing tho'.


Try assuming that time doesn't exist and you are keeping track
of change referenced to the rotation of the earth on its axis
plus earth's orbit around the sun. What is different?

The units.

ac6xg

John Smith wrote:

What is "time?" If I trapped it in a bottle--what would I be looking at?

An old Jim Croce record?

ac6xg

Cecil Moore wrote:

Roger Conroy wrote:

Can you define "changes" without reference to time?


My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the
changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry. Time
is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality.
Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

I think bats existed before man. They seem to have pretty good
perception of time.

ac6xg

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
Cecil Moore wrote:

Roger Conroy wrote:

Can you define "changes" without reference to time?


My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the
changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry.

My cats know when I am coming home in the evening

Time
is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality.

Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
things happen concurrently?



Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That's hard to prove one way or the other.


- Mike KB3EIA -


- Mike KB3EIA -

You guys are ducking the question - Can you define "Changes" without
referring to time?
Your dog/cat/bat/goldfish/snake's ability to predict when it will be fed is
spurious.

73 Roger ZR3RC

Apparently, we live in a world of 4 dimensions.

x, y, z, j*t

Have I ever seen (not heard) t preceded, as above, by the square root
of minus 1?

If so, what special properties does j confer on t when applied to it?

Why should time be rotated through 90 degrees?

Hmmm, what does "x" represent?
y, z, j?
I expect t = time?

Does this equation carry the mathematicians name?

How do I find reference of it?

My degree is NOT in math yanno!!! I only use math as a means to an end!

Warmest regards,
John

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
| Apparently, we live in a world of 4 dimensions.
|
| x, y, z, j*t
|
| Have I ever seen (not heard) t preceded, as above, by the square root
| of minus 1?
|
| If so, what special properties does j confer on t when applied to it?
|
| Why should time be rotated through 90 degrees?
|
|

Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
things happen concurrently?


I agree that time is the description of the interval between
happenings. What I don't accept is that time is some real
dimension existing completely independent of human concepts.

Well now, that is somewhat different. As for time itself being a
dimension, that is quite arguable. But even if that is the case, it
doesn't mean that time itself doesn't exist.

Did you ever wonder what the speed of gravity was?


Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.


That's hard to prove one way or the other.


I don't recall clocks being part of the fossil record. :-)

But there are clocks *in* the fossil record.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Roger Conroy wrote:

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...

Cecil Moore wrote:


Roger Conroy wrote:


Can you define "changes" without reference to time?


My dog cannot tell time but knows when to eat by the
changes in her feelings from not hungry to hungry.

My cats know when I am coming home in the evening


Time
is just an artifact of man's mental model of reality.

Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
things happen concurrently?




Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
alone with no reference to time.

That's hard to prove one way or the other.


- Mike KB3EIA -


- Mike KB3EIA -


You guys are ducking the question - Can you define "Changes" without
referring to time?

I can't.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Well, you are correct, we live in a universe where everything hasn't ALL
occured at once... and we have a "progression of events"... time is not a
"cause factor" of them, you want to argue it is an "effect of them", and
indeed--it even looks like that to me... (especially when I tap my red heels
together, close my eyes and repeat, "I want to go home! I want to go home!
Would take time ta git home, yanno! And, Toto wants to go to! grin)
And, a law of physics is "every action has an equal and opposite reaction",
so, I think it follows, we are still viewing the "reaction(s)" to the big
bang... with all events we are now viewing caused by its "action"; and, we
even live under the delusion these "reactions" are logical (obey "just" laws
of physics!!!!)

What worries me more, is when the universe becomes "static" (no free energy
yanno, one of those darn laws of physics, something is "spinning" all this
"stuff"--why would the universe be "perpetual motion? Well, unless 'God'
spins it!") what then?

Will you admit time would cease to exist then? And, why? Just because all
motion stopped? grin

But, "time" is not real.... (Alzheimers yanno--I forgot I already mentioned
that--sorry! grin)

Warmest regards,
John

"Mike Coslo" wrote in message
...
| Cecil Moore wrote:
|
| Mike Coslo wrote:
|
| Time is the description of the interval between happenings. Do all
| things happen concurrently?
|
|
| I agree that time is the description of the interval between
| happenings. What I don't accept is that time is some real
| dimension existing completely independent of human concepts.
|
| Well now, that is somewhat different. As for time itself being a
| dimension, that is quite arguable. But even if that is the case, it
| doesn't mean that time itself doesn't exist.
|
| Did you ever wonder what the speed of gravity was?
|
|
| Before man emerged, living organisms got by on changes
| alone with no reference to time.
|
|
| That's hard to prove one way or the other.
|
|
| I don't recall clocks being part of the fossil record. :-)
|
| But there are clocks *in* the fossil record.
|
| - Mike KB3EIA -