Are all these arguments revolving around a common point?
 

Let me give you my "Mental Model."

There is no such thing as "cold."
There is no such thing as "heat." (there is infrared radiation--i.e. a
frequency(s) of vibration of atoms)
Cold is the absence of heat, absolute cold (absolute zero) is a single
measurement of one state of heat (vibration/movement of atomic
particles)--NONE!
Heat (hot) is really a measurement of the state of exicted atomic/sub-atomic
particles movement, and of that movement producing "heat" through the
friction produced by the movement of these atomic particles...

Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but again,
physical change and movement!)

I realize that specific "mental models" have been created, taught, adopted
and followed (too religiously if you ask me!) for discussing and describing
"radio." However, most of these are far from "real things!"

Warmest regards,
John

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:15:16 -0700, John Smith posted with

Subject: Are all these arguments revolving around a common point?

Yep. The common point is Off-Topic trolling.

You, my friend, should pay much more attention to the posts--this is highly
relevant, or at least, at this point, a thinking man would pose such a
question... petty quibbling over "mental models" is a REAL road block to
some--or, so it seems...
Hey, this is another instance of it!!!! grin

Regards,
John

John Smith wrote:
Next, there is no such thing as "time!"

I once read a book called, "The End of Time" or
something like that. It asserted that time is
a concept invented by the mind of man and doesn't
really exist in reality.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Let me give you my "Mental Model."

There is no such thing as "cold."
There is no such thing as "heat." (there is infrared radiation--i.e. a
frequency(s) of vibration of atoms)
Cold is the absence of heat, absolute cold (absolute zero) is a single
measurement of one state of heat (vibration/movement of atomic
particles)--NONE!
Heat (hot) is really a measurement of the state of exicted
atomic/sub-atomic
particles movement, and of that movement producing "heat" through the
friction produced by the movement of these atomic particles...

Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but
again,
physical change and movement!)

I realize that specific "mental models" have been created, taught, adopted
and followed (too religiously if you ask me!) for discussing and
describing
"radio." However, most of these are far from "real things!"

Warmest regards,
John


Well, John,
If you put it thataway. Heat is an abstraction of movement. And time is
an abstraction of movement. Looks like the common thing here is ... lets see
.... hmmm... abstractions ! couldn't be movement, cuz my dial don't move
anymore - the LED's just flash the numbers. Antenna length is an abstraction
of movement - the rate of movement (mhz) (megacycles per second) uhoh - I
can see a circular reference here --- if speed is rate of movement - then
rate has no meaning without including an element of time -- which is itself
an abstraction of movement.
move us toward a better understanding - lets do string theory next -
unless it moves, too.

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:
Next, there is no such thing as "time!"

I once read a book called, "The End of Time" or
something like that. It asserted that time is
a concept invented by the mind of man and doesn't
really exist in reality.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

I read somewhere that "time" is Natures way of insuring that everything
doesn't happen all at once.(G)

Harold
KD5SAK

Cecil Moore wrote:
John Smith wrote:

Next, there is no such thing as "time!"


I once read a book called, "The End of Time" or
something like that. It asserted that time is
a concept invented by the mind of man and doesn't
really exist in reality.

Time is very real to us mortals, Cecil.

- Mike KB3EIA -

Harold Burton wrote:

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...

John Smith wrote:

Next, there is no such thing as "time!"

I once read a book called, "The End of Time" or
something like that. It asserted that time is
a concept invented by the mind of man and doesn't
really exist in reality.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


I read somewhere that "time" is Natures way of insuring that everything
doesn't happen all at once.(G)

Nature doesn't have my job! 8^)

- Mike KB3EIA -

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
Let me give you my "Mental Model."

There is no such thing as "cold."
There is no such thing as "heat." (there is infrared radiation--i.e. a
frequency(s) of vibration of atoms)
Cold is the absence of heat, absolute cold (absolute zero) is a single
measurement of one state of heat (vibration/movement of atomic
particles)--NONE!
Heat (hot) is really a measurement of the state of exicted
atomic/sub-atomic
particles movement, and of that movement producing "heat" through the
friction produced by the movement of these atomic particles...

Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but
again,
physical change and movement!)

I realize that specific "mental models" have been created, taught,
adopted
and followed (too religiously if you ask me!) for discussing and
describing
"radio." However, most of these are far from "real things!"

Warmest regards,
John


Your aspiration is to be a troll, right?

John

Yes, I think you understand my point! grin

Regards,
John

Now, "trolls" are not real creatures, you know that!

And, indeed, everyone seems to have a different interpretation of "troll" on
usenet--it is really meaningless to me, my goal is an exchange interesting
information--I have a little time left, and some patience.
But, you have my interest, what is the meaning of "troll" to you? With your
exact definition--I will be able to answer your question more accurately....
plus, we can make sure everyone here is in agreement of what a "troll"
is--then everyone can judge for themselves...

Regards,
John

John Smith wrote:
"Nwxt there is no such thing as "time!"

Well, the illusion called time is useful in physics, navigation, etc. It
gives some people something to sell.

Man has struggled desperately to measure time sccurately through much of
history.

The cesium beam atomic clock is about the best standard now. First
produced by the U.S. NIST in 1952 as NBS-1.

England`s National Physical Laboratory atomic clock is accurate to one
second in 1000 years.

Best regards, Richard Harrison, KB5WZI

No. This is all about measuring movement, and constantly improving the
accuracy thereof...

Rather than saying, "One hour has passed", you should be saying,
"one-twenty-fourth of a revolution of the Earth has occured." Well, take
your pick, they are both the same...

Regards,
John

Another way of thinking of this might be, "Everything has a direct
relationship to the revolution of the Earth"--this relationship we will call
"time", the birth/age/death cycle of life, the rise and decay of mountains,
the movement of all heavenly bodies, the radio bursts of a pulsar, the speed
of light, an object attracted by gravity, the spreading apart of the
universe, etc, etc....

Regards,
John

Last night I had a dream...

I snuck out to investigate a large and strange building on the outskirts of
the city, this building covered four city blocks!
When I peeked in one window, I seen two vaccume tubes, each was the size of
house!
The window was cracked, though the crack I overheard two engineers talking,
one must have been new, as the other was explaining to him that the equip
was a 100 megawatt xmitter! It was a 60 cycle transmitter. He pointed to
the rear of the tubes, at a LARGE balun which fed lines leaving the
building. He explained that the balun was properly loaded when a certain
voltage was on the plates, and there was a large, variable dummy load which
controlled the voltage on the plates, and that the input power could also be
varied, as this xmitter was used as a "constant voltage souce."
The lines which left the building went to supply homes with the transmitter
power. At each home the power was consumed by many individual "baluns",
which matched the impedance of the line to a device on the secondary of the
balun. Also, many dummy loads (light bulb, resistance heating devices,
etc.) existed in these homes. And, there were even devices who's impedance
matched that of the lines directly, but contained additional resistance to
limit the current they consumed...

Then I woke up!!! grin

Regards,
John

vacuum even!!!!

john

Mike Coslo wrote:
Time is very real to us mortals, Cecil.

So is God (whether He exists in reality or not).
Question is: Did time exist before man? A year is
simply movement, once around the sun. I've been
here for about 40 billion miles around the sun. Is
that time or simply distance? Am I winding down
because of the years or simply, like my '96 pickup,
because of the miles?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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.. Usually, I reread posts, the above-I did not, I am sure you noticed.

Such as where the constant voltage on the plates should have said, "Constant
voltage on the secondary of the balun" etc.

But, overlook the errors; you'll get the jest of it.



Regards,

John

Cecil:

You surprise me, Einstein thought, eventually, one equation would be found,
probably about one-inch long--which would explain all...
You follow in his footsteps, you are adept at seeing relationships!!!!
grin

Regards,
John

John Smith wrote:

Another way of thinking of this might be, "Everything has a direct
relationship to the revolution of the Earth" ...

Even the Big Bang which occurred billions of *years* before
"the revolution of the Earth" ever existed. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when the Earth
began its' first revolution!!!)

Ahhh, you can tell I am joking--it took a few "revolutions" for the Earth to
form... and at that time--back then--we were actually measuring time in
"planet formings" (PF) and "birth of stars" (BOS) any way, we only switched
to the new system in the upper B.C. period of Earth. grin

Warmest regards,
John

Oh yeah, and I DO have the exact date of the big bang, you can pass it on to
the scientists for me--0 B.O.S. (Zero Birth Of Star)
Just a hair before the first star forming.... grin

Regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" asks -
Did time exist before man?

============================

Entirely insignificant mankind could not possibly have had any
influence on the course of the Universe.
----
Reg

John Smith looks at Reg--sideways, with a slack jaw

John Smith wrote:
You surprise me, Einstein thought, eventually, one equation would be found,
probably about one-inch long--which would explain all...
You follow in his footsteps, you are adept at seeing relationships!!!!

If one just takes existence at face value, one lives closer
to that which actually exists. Time, like language, may
be just a human characteristic. Ever try to talk about
time without using time-sensitive words, e.g. the tenses
of verbs? :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Hi John,

You are thinking too much.

You sound clinically obsessive/manic in your overly expansive ideations that you appear to (truly) believe are NOT overly expansive at all, but rather are incredibly brilliant insights, or observations and ideas, that you feel absolutely MUST be shared with all of us --- immediately. The basis for that type of behavior has been studied and written about more than, dare I say, even the Balun. Take a break from it all. Stop talking to US about these things, because we aren't the ones you need. Talk to someone one-on-one that can help you out.

Regards,
--- Rob

John Smith wrote:

Let me give you my "Mental Model."

There is no such thing as "cold."
There is no such thing as "heat." (there is infrared radiation--i.e. a
frequency(s) of vibration of atoms)
Cold is the absence of heat, absolute cold (absolute zero) is a single
measurement of one state of heat (vibration/movement of atomic
particles)--NONE!
Heat (hot) is really a measurement of the state of exicted atomic/sub-atomic
particles movement, and of that movement producing "heat" through the
friction produced by the movement of these atomic particles...

Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but again,
physical change and movement!)

I realize that specific "mental models" have been created, taught, adopted
and followed (too religiously if you ask me!) for discussing and describing
"radio." However, most of these are far from "real things!"

Warmest regards,
John

John Smith wrote:
Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when the Earth
began its' first revolution!!!)

Precisely 4.5 billion years ago. :-) Strange as it may seem,
there is evidence, gathered by comparing Bristlecone Pine
rings to atomic dating methods, that a second today is
shorter than a second was yesterday. Shortening the length
of a second gives a whole new meaning to the Red Shift.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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John Smith wrote:
Oh yeah, and I DO have the exact date of the big bang, you can pass it on to
the scientists for me--0 B.O.S. (Zero Birth Of Star)
Just a hair before the first star forming.... grin

It probably took more than a hair from the Big Bang until the
first hydrogen atom formed and some time from that point until
the first star ignited. And the entire universe was opaque
until Mother Nature said, "Let there be light!" :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Reg Edwards wrote:

"Cecil Moore" asks -
Did time exist before man?

Entirely insignificant mankind could not possibly have had any
influence on the course of the Universe.

That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
universe got along just fine without the existence of
time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
here?
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp


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Yes Cecil, I concede your point, just poking a bit of fun--I am sure your
explanation is just as possible, if not more possible...

However, back then, God was probably measuring time in "universe creations!"
If you think about it, in such a time frame "hair" may be an accurate
description... grin

But, I am not sure the big bang only left free neutrons and electrons (which
had to form atoms)--I was thinking more "whole atoms" of some type...



Warmest regards,

John

Well, you missed the whole point--and maybe I am NOT all that gifted at
expressing my thoughts...

Let's reset to reality, I am saying, "Ones 'mental model' is highly
indicative of what they are going to perceive!"

Don't credit me with more complexity than I am capable of, or wanting to put
forward....



Warmest regards,
John

Errr, notice in the above thread, to my favor, I DID say "jest" and NOT
"gist" !!!

grin

Warmest regards,
John

That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
universe got along just fine without the existence of
time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
here?
--
73, Cecil

=============================

Well, Cec, my old pal, why didn't you say so in the first place? ;o)
---
Reg.

Well, I am surprised at you BOTH!!!
You know why!!!
Because it needs an observer(s) to exist properly!!!!
Crud, "God" would not be bothered with the likes of us--if this were NOT
true--that is proof in itself! grin

Warmest regards,
John

"Reg Edwards" wrote in message
...
|
| That's exactly what I am saying, Reg. Before man, the
| universe got along just fine without the existence of
| time. Why does the universe need time now that we are
| here?
| --
| 73, Cecil
|
| =============================
|
| Well, Cec, my old pal, why didn't you say so in the first place? ;o)
| ---
| Reg.
|
|

Yes, but, I interpret that as, "There is yet another effect? law? force?
which we don't know about, and we have to reference as a property of time
just to begin a "mental model" of it--since we have not yet comprehended
it..." (perhaps it is "God" rolling over in his sleep? Gawd! I hope "God"
doesn't wake up yet--he is going to be PI$$ED!!!!) grin

Warmest regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
| Yes, we have a precise measurement of that exact moment!!! (when the
Earth
| began its' first revolution!!!)
|
| Precisely 4.5 billion years ago. :-) Strange as it may seem,
| there is evidence, gathered by comparing Bristlecone Pine
| rings to atomic dating methods, that a second today is
| shorter than a second was yesterday. Shortening the length
| of a second gives a whole new meaning to the Red Shift.
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
|
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John Smith wrote:
But, I am not sure the big bang only left free neutrons and electrons (which
had to form atoms)--I was thinking more "whole atoms" of some type...

You left out protons. There existed a condition after the Big
Bang where everything was too hot to form "whole atoms".
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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At this time, I think it is important to interject the following, and
clarify my position:

I value GREATLY the men and women (even the ITs) who have gone before me.

They have laid a good foundation and provided me with tools of which a value
cannot be placed--knowledge is priceless...

And, I would always explain (with my limited abilities) the concepts which
provide a "language" so we can all communicate, effectively, on the subject
of radio and its' affects/effects... I respect the right of "impedance",
"reactance" and such to exist in concept... (even time--although I wish we
thought in terms of "Earth Revolutions" and fractions thereof; even the
concept of cold I can accept grin)

The forefathers of radio are at least as great as those forefathers of our
nation.

I would give all I own to have stood beside such men as Benjamin Franklin,
Nicola Tesla, Faraday, Armstrong, Deforest, etc... I am born too late for
anything so exciting--I only hope the future has such moments left... I
think it does (in fact, I "religiously" believe!)...



So, now those who would denounce me as a "Rebellious Idiot" should be
quieted (well, somewhat)!!! I am NOT rebellious!!!

grin


Warmest regards,
John

"John Smith" wrote in message
...
| Let me give you my "Mental Model."
|
| There is no such thing as "cold."
| There is no such thing as "heat." (there is infrared radiation--i.e. a
| frequency(s) of vibration of atoms)
| Cold is the absence of heat, absolute cold (absolute zero) is a single
| measurement of one state of heat (vibration/movement of atomic
| particles)--NONE!
| Heat (hot) is really a measurement of the state of exicted
atomic/sub-atomic
| particles movement, and of that movement producing "heat" through the
| friction produced by the movement of these atomic particles...
|
| Next, there is no such thing as "time!" Time is simply a measurement of
| movement! Indeed, our time is based on the rotation of the sun and
| planets... (atomic time on the decay of a radioactive substance--but
again,
| physical change and movement!)
|
| I realize that specific "mental models" have been created, taught, adopted
| and followed (too religiously if you ask me!) for discussing and
describing
| "radio." However, most of these are far from "real things!"
|
| Warmest regards,
| John
|
|

Well, that is beyond my comprehension, that much "space" being "too hot",
never-the-less, you could well be correct...

Regards,
John

"Cecil Moore" wrote in message
...
| John Smith wrote:
| But, I am not sure the big bang only left free neutrons and electrons
(which
| had to form atoms)--I was thinking more "whole atoms" of some type...
|
| You left out protons. There existed a condition after the Big
| Bang where everything was too hot to form "whole atoms".
| --
| 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp
|
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John Smith wrote:
Well, that is beyond my comprehension, that much "space" being "too hot",
never-the-less, you could well be correct...

There wasn't "that much space" back then. I forget how big
the Big Bang source space was, but it was extremely small
compared to the present universe and therefore extremely hot.
Incidentally, our "laws" of physics don't work until some
time after the Big Bang.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Cecil Moore wrote:

Mike Coslo wrote:

Time is very real to us mortals, Cecil.


So is God (whether He exists in reality or not).
Question is: Did time exist before man?

It is an interesting question. Certainly life forms that presumably do
*not* have consciousness, such as bacteria, have a beginning, a being
and an end. So is time dependent upon a life form possessing sentience?
If a sentient being such as man is not there to invent the concept of
time, do all those constructs that have a beginning and end cease to exist?

A year is
simply movement, once around the sun. I've been
here for about 40 billion miles around the sun. Is
that time or simply distance?

Years are constructs of humanity. It is simply a convenient method of
marking things that *happen*, such as the position of the stars, which
as it turns out , is a manifestation of the period in which the earth
returns to some initial observation point.

No doubt it is similar to our using base 10 math because we happen to
have 10 fingers.

Am I winding down
because of the years or simply, like my '96 pickup,
because of the miles?

Entropy, My dear Cecil, entropy!

More importantly, as the great sage Homer Simpson asked:

"Can God make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it?"

- Mike KB3EIA -